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Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9517 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: I will again go with what Kreeft says. God created the possibility of evil. Thus also the possibility of suffering. Suffering is inevitable to some degree in the realm we live in. You're not thinking, put your dogma aside and just think. Given that god has created a place that doesn't require suffering, why did god create suffering here?
Some suffering is unavoidable. Given that heaven exists and doesn't have suffering, that statement can not be true can it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im not sure I agree with your attempt to frame the argument. You want a straight-up challenge(like Job) to Gods plan and purpose by humans who demand to know. If, however, you go with such a hypothetical, you must also include the corollary hypothetical of Gods response. His answer to the humans who demand to know. Can you imagine that?
Warning in advance: If we go down this rabbit trail, we have to also include our interpretation of Gods likely response. Agreed? Additional food for thought:
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Tangle Member Posts: 9517 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: m not sure I agree with your attempt to frame the argument. It's got nothing to do with agreement, it's a philosophical question which begs a response. If god is able to make a place without suffering for his creation, why has he chosen not to? Why do you think he did that Phat? Put aside all your learned apologetics and just think - is there a rational answer?
You want a straight-up challenge(like Job) to Gods plan and purpose by humans who demand to know. If, however, you go with such a hypothetical, you must also include the corollary hypothetical of Gods response. His answer to the humans who demand to know. Can you imagine that? It's not a challenge to god, it's challenge to you. Why would a loving god make his creation suffer if he had an alternative? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Phat, God does not hate TE's or evolutionists. God does
not hate any humans. TE's dismiss the first eleven chapters of Genesis. Theydismiss Noah and the global flood, as well as the origin of sin and death, and more. The Apostles wrote of these events. Jesus, himself,spoke of Noah and the flood. Do TE's think that Jesus and the Apostles were lying, ormaking stuff up. Do they think that Jesus was lying when he said that"from the beginning God made them male and female?" Theistic evolution is riddled with assumption andfalsehood . Why would God look favorably on it?
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Im not sure I agree with your attempt to frame the argument. I'm taking that as your way of conceding that you don't have a good answer.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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TE's dismiss the first eleven chapters of Genesis. No, they don't. They take those chapters as theological but not historical.
Do TE's think that Jesus and the Apostles were lying, or making stuff up. Why do you assume that Jesus and the apostles were mindless mechanical robots? Why not assume that they were fully human, and made allusions to well known stories just as humans do today?Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Nwr, I don't assume anything. I know beyond a shadow
of a doubt that they were humans. However, they were filled with God's Holy Spirit. And theylived with Jesus for over three years. Jesus, as the Word, was the member of the God family--which now consists of two members--that created Adam and Eve. Jesus is the same member that led the Israelites outOf Egypt. The same that wrote the 10 Commandments on stone. And, the same that said "keep there be light." I believe Him with all my heart.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I did get the analogy. My response was that grandma is as likely as anybody else to smoke pot, what with her glaucoma and all, and she is more likely than many others to share it with you, in cookies, for example. It has nothing to do with "evil" or "willfulness" or "rebelliousness". It has everything to do with grandmas being grandmas, especially grandmas of a certain generation. You didn't get the analogy. When in the "house" of someone whom you know and respect, you will temper your own evil/willful/rebellious tendencies. It was a bad analogy.
Phat writes:
I haven't applied. I don't like the nhe neighborhood.
... if you even made the grade to be accepted in Heaven... Phat writes:
Smoking pot is not 'doing evil". Bad analogy.
you would not be/do evil in Heaven. Phat writes:
We know, we know. YAWN. The apologetics that I have adapted says that God initially allowed free will in Heaven, Lucifer chose it ... blah... blah... blah.... You can't even apologize for "your" own apologetics, so stop wasting our time with your endless repetition.
Phat writes:
Which makes Him responsible. All that is to say that God foreknew what we were likely to do.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Don't need to. I can rebut your apologetics off the top of my head any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
At least you cant readily google a rebuttal to mine. Phat writes:
You have it backwards, as usual. being able to express it it my (our) own words is a thousand times better than having to google it. You google till the cows come home but you don't understand what you google. You have to actually make up your own response.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It's funny how you quote scripture actually saying flat out that "The earth is the LORD’s" and then you handwave it away saying that most commentaries disagree. Lets go to scrip:Psalms 24:1 writes: ESV-The earth is the LORD’s and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein, for he has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the rivers. Most commentaries suggest that though the earth was the Lords, the world was/is of Satan. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
He most certainly can. My lease specifies no smoking (tobacco and/or pot). Quiet must be maintained from 10 PM to 8 AM. The laundry room may only be used from 9 AM to 9 PM. I can't even put a nail in the wall to hang a picture. The landlord is legally entitled to make those rules for the greater good of the residents at large.
If a Landlord rents out apartments in an apartment house that he happens to own, he cannot legally have a say as to what specific behaviors his tenants can do. Phat writes:
Wrong again. The only thing he can enforce is occupancy. If he doesn't like a guest's behavior, he can ask the guest to leave. His right to remove the unwanted guest forcibly is also circumscribed.
IF, however, we are talking about the Landlords's personal home, he darn well can enforce any and every type of behavior within that environment. Phat writes:
Even if you were right about landlord/host rights, which you are not, you're just making that up. You're trying to reverse-engineer your theology to fit your misconceived notiions. The earth is more like a rental property. Heaven is more like a personal and private residence.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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Phat proves every time he posts about it that Apologetics = making shit up as you go along.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You should be able to answer that. It isn't a difficult question. You could google it. That's like asking me why the sky isn't greenCome all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
And you don't understand a word of the apologetics that you worship.
l...he does not believe a word of the apologetic narrative regarding the stories and parables of the holy scriptures. Phat writes:
Your own fantasies scare you. (Now I'll read on in your post and see if I was right.)
... do you have any idea (or concern) about what scares me? Phat writes:
Yup, your fantasy. All in your addled mind. Not a vestage of reality.
What scares me is the vision of a one world social democratic order...where religion is publicly outlawed and secular humanist values are required (a mandatory requirement all in the name of protecting the people from religious radicals.) Phat writes:
Easy prediction, since you won't live long enough to be proven wrong.
I see it happening easily within 25 years. Phat writes:
I don't know why you're so enamored with a two-party system. Most of the mature democracies in the world have multiple parties. In Canada, we have five parties in Parliament. Is it ever possible for a two party system to see eye to eye? A system limited to two parties is necessarily polarizing.
Phat writes:
You're not "conservative-leaning". You fell off the edge long ago. conservative leaning Bible thumpers And you're not a "Bible-thumper". You're a Bible-trasher.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
And yet you don't give Him credit for thinking. I believe Him with all my heart.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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