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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 944 of 1864 (903103)
12-04-2022 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by Phat
12-04-2022 8:59 AM


Re: Back To The Trinity (Remix)
Phat writes:
In this context, evolution simply means human improvements throughout time.
Nonsense.
You guys have gone so far as to throw God away.
Also nonsense
Age of Enlightenment
More nonsense
My idea of "enlightenment, however, is that moment when one senses a connection emotionally with the Creator of all seen and unseen. As my blood sugars are dropping, i find myself able to write and express myself as I used to do.
Yeh, well that's not necessarily a good thing.
To me, the idea of a Trinity in no way implies polytheism.
As no one has ever made any kind of sense of the Trinity who cares?
Christianity is and was expressed through Christ.
GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen (and the God of infinite multiverses, should they exist) is simply "the Father" to Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the comforter...the eternal presence (and awareness of this presence)
When He was said to proclaim that "I and My Father are One, He was implying that as a human, He fully understood and personified God's character. Of course, other religions may disagree, but among diversity, there can be unity.
Cant

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 8:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 946 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 1:07 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 949 of 1864 (903118)
12-04-2022 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 946 by Phat
12-04-2022 1:07 PM


Re: The Media As Conduit
Phat writes:
And you wonder why Division exists in religion and in politics!
I guess you didn't know that "cant" means 'sanctimonious talk of a religious nature'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 946 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 1:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 951 of 1864 (903126)
12-04-2022 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 950 by Phat
12-04-2022 2:40 PM


Re: Back To The Trinity (Remix)
Phat writes:
Because he attempts to discredit the whole belief of Christianity.
You mean like Darwin did?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 950 by Phat, posted 12-04-2022 2:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 987 of 1864 (905138)
01-19-2023 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 986 by Phat
01-18-2023 8:06 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Is there freedom in heaven Phat?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 986 by Phat, posted 01-18-2023 8:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 988 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:36 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 989 of 1864 (905141)
01-19-2023 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 988 by Phat
01-19-2023 4:36 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Yes, I believe so.
So why is it not possible here?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 988 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 990 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 997 of 1864 (905179)
01-19-2023 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 990 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:34 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
I was unaware that nobody has freedom *here*.
What I asked you was "Is there freedom in heaven Phat?" ie freedom to do evil in heaven. Is there?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 990 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:34 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1001 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 12:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1003 of 1864 (905193)
01-19-2023 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1001 by Phat
01-19-2023 12:09 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
First off ...etc
I think you're avoiding the question. It's a philosophical question Phat.
The explanation often given by apologists for the existence of evil here on earth (define it anyway you like, it doesn't matter) is free will. They say that God could not create a place where people could only be good - free will means the ability to chose to do both good and evil. So evil must exist.
So I asked you whether people in heaven have free will? Heaven is a place were people live happily ever after so how can evil exist there?
if evil doesn't exist there, why can't it not exist here? Apparently god CAN create a place without evil.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1001 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 12:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1004 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 2:42 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1009 of 1864 (905220)
01-19-2023 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1004 by Phat
01-19-2023 2:42 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Because we have willfully allowed it. God respects our free will so much that He won't simply take the evil away from us. We allowed it in. We must push it out. Of course, we are also free enough to choose to ask Him to help. He won't do it all, however.
All you have said above is that evil exists here because freewill requires it.
I asked whether freewill also exists in heaven. If freewill does not exist in heaven and there is no evil, why does evil need to exist here?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1004 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 2:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1012 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 7:19 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 1010 of 1864 (905221)
01-19-2023 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Phat
01-19-2023 4:01 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Are you seriously asking that question? For the same reason that we can't smoke pot at grandma's house.
If god won't allow it, where is freewill?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1022 of 1864 (905258)
01-21-2023 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1021 by Phat
01-21-2023 2:14 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
I guess you're not able to answer my question about freewill in heaven, to be fair it is a difficult one.
Here's an easier version. Is there disease in heaven?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1021 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 2:14 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1023 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 7:42 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1024 of 1864 (905261)
01-21-2023 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1023 by Phat
01-21-2023 7:42 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
I would think not.
So if it is possible for god to create a place where disease does not exist, why hasn't he created a disease free earth?
Heaven lacks the environment of decay and entropy that earth has. And of course I'm not only speculating but making up what I believe about Heaven. There is no data.
You don't need to make stuff up, it's a philosophical question, we take it as an accepted premise that heaven does not have disease, famine, natural tragedies etc. If it did it wouldn't be heaven.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 7:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 9:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1026 of 1864 (905265)
01-21-2023 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1025 by Phat
01-21-2023 9:22 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Essentially you are asking why God doesn't create Heaven on earth. Trust the process.
So can you answer my question?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 9:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1029 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 12:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1034 of 1864 (905276)
01-21-2023 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1029 by Phat
01-21-2023 12:02 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
How?
By thinking about it.
So the question is if it's possible for god to create a place where suffering is not a necessary part of his creation - which I think you accept? - why has he created suffering?
Remember, this is the god of love.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1029 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 12:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1035 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 3:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1036 of 1864 (905279)
01-21-2023 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1035 by Phat
01-21-2023 3:50 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
I will again go with what Kreeft says. God created the possibility of evil. Thus also the possibility of suffering. Suffering is inevitable to some degree in the realm we live in.
You're not thinking, put your dogma aside and just think.
Given that god has created a place that doesn't require suffering, why did god create suffering here?
Some suffering is unavoidable.
Given that heaven exists and doesn't have suffering, that statement can not be true can it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1035 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 3:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by Phat, posted 01-22-2023 9:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 1038 of 1864 (905286)
01-22-2023 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1037 by Phat
01-22-2023 9:39 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
m not sure I agree with your attempt to frame the argument.
It's got nothing to do with agreement, it's a philosophical question which begs a response. If god is able to make a place without suffering for his creation, why has he chosen not to? Why do you think he did that Phat? Put aside all your learned apologetics and just think - is there a rational answer?
You want a straight-up challenge(like Job) to Gods plan and purpose by humans who demand to know. If, however, you go with such a hypothetical, you must also include the corollary hypothetical of Gods response. His answer to the humans who demand to know. Can you imagine that?
It's not a challenge to god, it's challenge to you. Why would a loving god make his creation suffer if he had an alternative?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by Phat, posted 01-22-2023 9:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1051 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 3:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
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