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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1021 of 1147 (905257)
01-21-2023 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Taq
01-19-2023 7:15 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
If there is a reason not to commit evil, then it would apply equally to our time on Earth as it does in our time in Heaven.
I disagree. I look at it this way. If a Landlord rents out apartments in an apartment house that he happens to own, he cannot legally have a say as to what specific behaviors his tenants can do. IF, however, we are talking about the Landlords's personal home, he darn well can enforce any and every type of behavior within that environment. The earth is more like a rental property. Heaven is more like a personal and private residence.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 7:15 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1022 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 3:20 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1046 by ringo, posted 01-22-2023 1:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1022 of 1147 (905258)
01-21-2023 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1021 by Phat
01-21-2023 2:14 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
I guess you're not able to answer my question about freewill in heaven, to be fair it is a difficult one.
Here's an easier version. Is there disease in heaven?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1021 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 2:14 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1023 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 7:42 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1023 of 1147 (905259)
01-21-2023 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1022 by Tangle
01-21-2023 3:20 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
I would think not. Heaven lacks the environment of decay and entropy that earth has. And of course I'm not only speculating but making up what I believe about Heaven. There is no data.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1022 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 3:20 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1024 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 8:08 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1024 of 1147 (905261)
01-21-2023 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1023 by Phat
01-21-2023 7:42 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
I would think not.
So if it is possible for god to create a place where disease does not exist, why hasn't he created a disease free earth?
Heaven lacks the environment of decay and entropy that earth has. And of course I'm not only speculating but making up what I believe about Heaven. There is no data.
You don't need to make stuff up, it's a philosophical question, we take it as an accepted premise that heaven does not have disease, famine, natural tragedies etc. If it did it wouldn't be heaven.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 7:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 9:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1025 of 1147 (905264)
01-21-2023 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1024 by Tangle
01-21-2023 8:08 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Essentially you are asking why God doesn't create Heaven on earth. Trust the process.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1024 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 8:08 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1026 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 10:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 1026 of 1147 (905265)
01-21-2023 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1025 by Phat
01-21-2023 9:22 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Essentially you are asking why God doesn't create Heaven on earth. Trust the process.
So can you answer my question?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 9:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1029 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 12:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1027 of 1147 (905266)
01-21-2023 10:39 AM


The god of the christian books is evil. Q.E.D.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


Replies to this message:
 Message 1030 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 12:06 PM Theodoric has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 316
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1028 of 1147 (905267)
01-21-2023 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 980 by Taq
01-18-2023 11:30 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
Taq, a so-called theistic evolutionists is no more a
Christian than a liberal man who puts on a dress and
lipstick is a woman.
Theistic evolutionists are the same as evolutionists in
God's eyes.
God leaves nothing to chance; only humans do this.
Jesus tells us that the very hair on our head is known by
God. And, that every sparrow that falls to the ground is
also known by God.
Revelation 13:8 informs us that before the earth was
formed that the Word (Jesus) knew He would one
day be put to death for our sins.
Ephesians 1:4 tells us that before the earth was
created that God already knew who His "elect" were,
and when they would be born.
The "elect" are those who were/are predestinated to
conform to the image of God. The "elect" will occupy
governmental position in the Kingdom of God when
Christ returns to set it up.
Nothing here is left to chance.
The Word "yom" is used more than 2300 times
outside of Genesis 1.
Whether plural or singular in every occasion where
yom is used with a number it refers to a 24 hour
period.
There are over 400 examples of this in the OT.
When the terms night and day are found outside
of Genesis 1 (52 times) it always refers to a 24
hour period.
When the terms "evening" or "morning" is used
outside of Genesis 1 it always refers to a 24 hour
day.
When evening and morning, without yom, are used
together outside of Genesis 1 (38 times) it always
refers to a 24 hour day.
When referring to Jonah being three days and
nights in the belly of the fish TE's have no trouble
understanding the amount of time involved.
In Genesis 1 their minds melt down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 980 by Taq, posted 01-18-2023 11:30 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1033 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 1:08 PM candle2 has replied
 Message 1074 by Taq, posted 01-23-2023 12:04 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1029 of 1147 (905268)
01-21-2023 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1026 by Tangle
01-21-2023 10:25 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
How? That's like asking me why the sky isn't green

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1026 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 10:25 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 2:32 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1048 by ringo, posted 01-22-2023 1:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1030 of 1147 (905269)
01-21-2023 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1027 by Theodoric
01-21-2023 10:39 AM


Meaningless word salad.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1027 by Theodoric, posted 01-21-2023 10:39 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1031 by Theodoric, posted 01-21-2023 12:35 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1031 of 1147 (905270)
01-21-2023 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1030 by Phat
01-21-2023 12:06 PM


If you are going to try to be clever, make sure the comment is appropriate. Do you honestly not understand the term word salad?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1030 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 12:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1032 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 1:03 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1032 of 1147 (905271)
01-21-2023 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1031 by Theodoric
01-21-2023 12:35 PM


From an Illiterate to an Elitist
To be fair, I *did* notice the small g and figured you were only saying that the "god" of the Bible is evil....which is always what critics used to say to conservative leaning Bible thumpers. Tangle seems to think that is true as well...he does not believe a word of the apologetic narrative regarding the stories and parables of the holy scriptures.
You have alluded to the fact about what scares Liberal Progressives and self described educated elitists(of expertise ) and (you) paint conservatives such as Cruz (and evidently myself)as "self radicalized" but do you have any idea (or concern) about what scares me?
What scares me is the vision of a one world social democratic order...where religion is publicly outlawed and secular humanist values are required (a mandatory requirement all in the name of protecting the people from religious radicals.) And since you all are so educated, you will push for a one world financial system (advertised as a humane solution to help ALL of the people) and will eventually seek to abolish private property rights (also implemented to back the global government) which is admittedly a long way off at this point. But not that long. I see it happening easily within 25 years.
You may laugh (or cry) at my radicalized ignorance but I am just as scared of your leftist authoritarian arrogance. Your system will fail because (all of) you have attempted to replace God with your lame brains and bleeding secular hearts.[/rant]
Is it ever possible for a two party system to see eye to eye?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1031 by Theodoric, posted 01-21-2023 12:35 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1049 by ringo, posted 01-22-2023 2:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1033 of 1147 (905272)
01-21-2023 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1028 by candle2
01-21-2023 11:39 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2 writes:
Theistic evolutionists are the same as evolutionists in
God's eyes.
Thats quite a feat...seeing through Gods eyes. Im not 100% sure of what He thinks. For all I know He is either mad at me or crying over my self radicalization! In all seriousness, though...why would God hate "evolutionists"?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1028 by candle2, posted 01-21-2023 11:39 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1039 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 11:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 1034 of 1147 (905276)
01-21-2023 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1029 by Phat
01-21-2023 12:02 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
How?
By thinking about it.
So the question is if it's possible for god to create a place where suffering is not a necessary part of his creation - which I think you accept? - why has he created suffering?
Remember, this is the god of love.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1029 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 12:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1035 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 3:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1035 of 1147 (905277)
01-21-2023 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Tangle
01-21-2023 2:32 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Tangle writes:
So the question is if it's possible for god to create a place where suffering is not a necessary part of his creation - which I think you accept? - why has he created suffering?
Apart from the obvious go-to answer that pops up in your head-that He doesnt exist(couldnt exist) I will again go with what Kreeft says. God created the possibility of evil. Thus also the possibility of suffering. Suffering is inevitable to some degree in the realm we live in.
Remember, this is the god of love.
This God also honored our initial freewilled decision(as a species) to exist freely and apart from Him. So why suffer?
1) Some suffering is unavoidable. There are diseases, natural disasters, wars and depressions. If I understand you correctly, you are questioning me (as Gods advocate or press secretary) to explain to you why this must be so.
  • To build our character in the face of overwhelming adversity. To endure and overcome such adversity is the very example of survival of the fittest. To allow any less would make us weaker as a species. Mind you, I hate it too! I often think I deserve better....but maybe the answer is no.
  • To freely stand against actualized evil, resisting "it" until "it" leaves this realm some day. In other words, God's choice for getting rid of evil is to have His children(those who accept the call) to fight it, resist it, and thus eliminate it.
    Thats the best I can do. And of course, you may argue that we as a species would have to do the same thing even if there were no God and no actualized evil.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1034 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 2:32 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1036 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 5:36 PM Phat has replied

      
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