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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1006 of 1147 (905212)
01-19-2023 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1005 by Taq
01-19-2023 3:02 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Are you seriously asking that question? For the same reason that we can't smoke pot at grandma's house.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1005 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 3:02 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1007 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 4:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1008 by dwise1, posted 01-19-2023 4:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1010 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2023 5:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1011 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 7:15 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1015 by ringo, posted 01-20-2023 11:35 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1007 of 1147 (905214)
01-19-2023 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Phat
01-19-2023 4:01 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
But we can and I have.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5558
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1008 of 1147 (905217)
01-19-2023 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Phat
01-19-2023 4:01 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
For the same reason that we can't smoke pot at grandma's house.
Because she won't let you bogart that joint, my friend?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or9i5R7jrGw
I do know that pot is legal in Colorado, because of news reports that law enforcement on the border in Nebraska was freaking out at the time. And a proportion of dispensary customers are of retirement age.
 
PS
In 1960, Tom Lehrer's song, Be Prepared, offers advice to scouts concerning bringing pot to a campout, that they be careful not to turn on when the Scoutmaster's around because he will insist that it be shared. So be prepared.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoEVPtVk9nE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1009 of 1147 (905220)
01-19-2023 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1004 by Phat
01-19-2023 2:42 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Because we have willfully allowed it. God respects our free will so much that He won't simply take the evil away from us. We allowed it in. We must push it out. Of course, we are also free enough to choose to ask Him to help. He won't do it all, however.
All you have said above is that evil exists here because freewill requires it.
I asked whether freewill also exists in heaven. If freewill does not exist in heaven and there is no evil, why does evil need to exist here?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1004 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 2:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1012 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 7:19 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 1010 of 1147 (905221)
01-19-2023 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Phat
01-19-2023 4:01 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Are you seriously asking that question? For the same reason that we can't smoke pot at grandma's house.
If god won't allow it, where is freewill?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1011 of 1147 (905228)
01-19-2023 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Phat
01-19-2023 4:01 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Are you seriously asking that question? For the same reason that we can't smoke pot at grandma's house.
What's stopping us from smoking pot at grandma's house? We can if we choose.
If there is a reason not to commit evil, then it would apply equally to our time on Earth as it does in our time in Heaven. If we are incapable of committing evil in heaven, then why not make the Earth that way to begin with?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1021 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 2:14 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 1012 of 1147 (905229)
01-19-2023 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1009 by Tangle
01-19-2023 5:18 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Tangle writes:
I asked whether freewill also exists in heaven. If freewill does not exist in heaven and there is no evil, why does evil need to exist here?
Heaven seems to break a lot of Christian theology.
We are told that pain, suffering, and death exist on Earth because life would not be worth living if those things did not exist. A strange theology, but let's go with it. If that is correct, then will there be pain, suffering, and death in Heaven? Not by most accounts. So would Heaven be a terrible place to live? According to Christian theology, it would be a terrible place to live, especially now that we don't have free will, it would appear.
At this point, we have to ask why Earth even exists to begin with. Why not just start us out in Heaven?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1009 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2023 5:18 PM Tangle has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5558
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1013 of 1147 (905230)
01-19-2023 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 985 by Phat
01-18-2023 6:31 PM


Re: Getting Back On Topic
Seeing as how this is a Faith & Belief topic, evolution vs creationism, though fair game, takes us off on a rabbit trail. candle, knock it off.
Let me help you steer back on course, or, if you prefer, start a new topic.
Not going to happen.
candle2 has never ever started a topic. Instead, he just pops into existing topics to spread his nonsense with no regard for staying on topic.
Even when we create a new topic for the discussion, he just ignores it. Case in point: pursuant to his persistent lies about radiocarbon dating, I created a new topic for that discussion: Radiocarbon Dating Discussion with candle2 . Despite my mention of him in the very title of the topic, he is highly conspicuous in his absence.
Sorry, but the only place to respond to him is where he crops up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by Phat, posted 01-18-2023 6:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5558
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 1014 of 1147 (905231)
01-19-2023 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 981 by candle2
01-18-2023 12:12 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
Taq writes:
All I know is that there are millions and millions of Christians who accept evolution.
Taq, the number of people who believe a certain way has
nothing to do with whether they are right or not.
Wrong question yet again. No wonder you never learn anything.
Your question should be "Why do they accept evolution?" and even more importantly, "Why do they have no problem accepting evolution when you, candle2, do?"
What do they know that you don't?
You also must ask these further questions, questions you have never bothered to ask and that you are terrified of asking:
  • What do I, candle2, think that evolution is? And how it works?
    HINT: You repeatedly and consistently demonstrate that you have no idea at all what evolution is nor how it works. "Dogs giving birth to kittens"? Complete and utter idiocy!
  • Why do I, candle2, think that evolution somehow conflicts with God?
    In what ways do I, candle2, think that evolution somehow conflicts with God?
    HINT: Evolution happens quite naturally and is inseparable from life itself and how life works. Evolution conflicts with God no more than gravity or static electricity conflict with God. If you disagree with that, then you need to explain how and why. Seriously.
The reason why those millions and millions of Christians accept evolution is because, unlike you, they know what it actually is. They know that the lies that creationists tell are false. They know that evolution is not the monstrous bogeyman that you have been fooled into thinking it to be.
Many of those Christians even used to be YECs before they learned the truth. One example of a former YEC is Dr. Mary Schweitzer, PhD Biology:
quote:
Based at North Carolina State University, Schweitzer is currently researching Molecular Paleontology, molecular diagenesis and taphonomy, evolution of physiological and reproductive strategies in dinosaurs and their bird descendants, and astrobiology.
She was a young-earth creationist who enrolled in Dr. Jack Horner's class in order to learn the evidence so that she could disprove evolution. She did learn the evidence, including lots of evidence that the creationists had never told her about and would continue to hide from her.
She states outright that the reason she accepts evolution is because of the data. And she is still a Bible-believing Christian, just no longer a YEC (again, because of the data that creationists don't want her nor you to ever see).
Does her name sound familiar to you? It should. In T. Rex fossils she found trace evidence of blood vessels and soft tissue, including collagen:
quote:
Schweitzer was the first researcher to identify and isolate soft tissues from an ancient fossil bone. The soft tissues are collagen, a connective protein. Amino acid sequencing of several samples have shown matches with the known collagens of chickens, frogs, newts and other animals. Schweitzer has also isolated organic compounds and antigenic structures in sauropod egg shells. With respect to the significance of her work, Kevin Padian, Curator of Paleontology, University of California Museum of Paleontology, has stated "Chemicals that might degrade in a laboratory over a short period need not do so in a protected natural chemical environment...it's time to readjust our thinking."
Creationists have repeatedly misrepresented her work and lied about it, especially leaving out the part where that "soft tissue" had to be soaked in acid in order to demineralize it.
A few days ago, AronRa posted this video of his conversation with Dr. Schweitzer about her findings (and how creationists misrepresent them), her beliefs, and her journey from YEC to real scientist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 981 by candle2, posted 01-18-2023 12:12 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1015 of 1147 (905242)
01-20-2023 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Phat
01-19-2023 4:01 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Are you seriously asking that question? For the same reason that we can't smoke pot at grandma's house.
I come from the olden days when you had to look over your shoulder when you smoked pot. I still look over my shoulder when I smell somebody else's pot.
But this is the 21st century. A lot of grandmas are smoking pot.
So how about an honest answer to the question?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1016 by Phat, posted 01-20-2023 12:37 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1016 of 1147 (905243)
01-20-2023 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1015 by ringo
01-20-2023 11:35 AM


Good & Evil In Heaven (hypothetically)
You didn't get the analogy. When in the "house" of someone whom you know and respect, you will temper your own evil/willful/rebellious tendencies. In other words, if you even made the grade to be accepted in Heaven, you would have had to have met the Landlord. Building on that relationship, you would not be/do evil in Heaven. This does not mean that you couldnt. (Though there might be another war and you may find yourself cast down to some planet somewhere! )
The apologetics that I have adapted says that God initially allowed free will in Heaven, Lucifer chose it (perhaps he only chose "completeness" in order to be more like God), and yet the fallen cherub couldn't handle the responsibility. Thus, war broke out in Heaven and Lucifer was cast down...(booted out) Your beloved snake (who told the truth! ) was a metaphor for the truth that we can all be complete(like God) won out in human imagination and evolution. Had the Woman reached for the tree of life (I AM the vine...)
She would have found God's character and guidance. Instead, they chose the pesky tree of autonomy and self-actualization, and here we all are. The man, for his part, should have listened to God and not the woman, but he had not yet tasted of life(In Christ) yet either.
All that is to say that God foreknew what we were likely to do. Jesus is and was around since the beginning (represented as the Tree of Life) and yet God knew we would take a detour before being able to eat of that tree. Some of you evidenced based skeptics think you have reality all figured out and are STILL in the detour!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1015 by ringo, posted 01-20-2023 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1019 by Taq, posted 01-20-2023 3:14 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1043 by ringo, posted 01-22-2023 1:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1017 of 1147 (905245)
01-20-2023 1:32 PM


Apologetics whew!
Evidently a synonym for apologetics is "making shit up".

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


Replies to this message:
 Message 1018 by Phat, posted 01-20-2023 2:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1018 of 1147 (905246)
01-20-2023 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1017 by Theodoric
01-20-2023 1:32 PM


Re: Apologetics whew!
At least you cant readily google a rebuttal to mine. You have to actually make up your own response.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1017 by Theodoric, posted 01-20-2023 1:32 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by ringo, posted 01-22-2023 1:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1019 of 1147 (905247)
01-20-2023 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1016 by Phat
01-20-2023 12:37 PM


Re: Good & Evil In Heaven (hypothetically)
Phat writes:
You didn't get the analogy. When in the "house" of someone whom you know and respect, you will temper your own evil/willful/rebellious tendencies.
People still do evil in other peoples' houses.
In other words, if you even made the grade to be accepted in Heaven, you would have had to have met the Landlord. Building on that relationship, you would not be/do evil in Heaven.
God was the landlord of the Garden of Eden and of the Earth, is he not?
Your beloved snake (who told the truth! ) was a metaphor for the truth that we can all be complete(like God) won out in human imagination and evolution. Had the Woman reached for the tree of life (I AM the vine...)
God said that if Adam or Eve ate of the tree of knowledge that they would die that day. The serpent told them that God was full of it. Who was right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1016 by Phat, posted 01-20-2023 12:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1020 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 1:53 AM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1020 of 1147 (905256)
01-21-2023 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1019 by Taq
01-20-2023 3:14 PM


Re: Good & Evil In Heaven (hypothetically)
Taq writes:
God was the landlord of the Garden of Eden and of the Earth, is he not?
Yes and no. (Im gonna have to dance a bit in order to make my apologetic fit your question! )
Lets go to scrip:
Psalms 24:1 writes:
ESV-The earth is the LORD’s and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein, for he has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the rivers.
Most commentaries suggest that though the earth was the Lords, the world was/is of Satan.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1019 by Taq, posted 01-20-2023 3:14 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1045 by ringo, posted 01-22-2023 1:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
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