Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 48 (9179 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,231 Year: 5,488/9,624 Month: 513/323 Week: 10/143 Day: 0/10 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 1864 (376770)
01-13-2007 6:10 PM


I have long wondered just what the notion of a trinity was supposed to explain if the common understanding requires that the three are one.
I also would ask what the explanation is for the pregnancy experienced by Mary {wife of Joseph} if it is the case that the trinity are all the same since this would make Jesus the father of himself.
I imagine that faith and belief forum would be suitable for this topic.
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 01-13-2007 7:08 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 7 by honda33, posted 01-13-2007 10:04 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 8 by Rob, posted 01-13-2007 10:45 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 9 by anastasia, posted 01-13-2007 11:27 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 52 by ReverendDG, posted 03-16-2007 8:53 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 215 by GDR, posted 08-15-2016 3:08 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 437 by Base12, posted 08-07-2020 2:37 AM sidelined has not replied
 Message 1326 by Greatest I am, posted 02-18-2023 1:37 PM sidelined has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 4 of 1864 (376793)
01-13-2007 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
01-13-2007 7:08 PM


Re: Trin Trinity Trin Trinity Trin Trin Teree ©
Phat
Imagine that you were outside playing football. You looked up and saw the Sun which was 93 million miles away. The sunlight was shining all over, and the heat was noticeable. Although these are three separate attributes, they originate from one source.
But the attributes of distance, light, and heat are phenomena attributable to the sun and not the sun itself. If we are to be consistent then the attributes must all add up to being the same thing.
If Jesus is also God/Holy spirit, then we still are at a loss as to how he can be father to himself. Indeed one wonders how the physical manifestation of flesh inherent in pregnancy can be achieved through that which is non physical to begin with. What is the specific attribute of the Holy Spirit that makes it possible to impregnate a human female?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 01-13-2007 7:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-13-2007 7:57 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 03-16-2007 1:32 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 1191 by Dredge, posted 02-11-2023 12:08 PM sidelined has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 1864 (376803)
01-13-2007 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
01-13-2007 7:57 PM


Re: Trin Trinity Trin Trinity Trin Trin Teree ©
Phat
Well if potential was all that was required I would be the father of so many more children I would be subject to manhunts on a regular basis so perhaps something more substantial is in order.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-13-2007 7:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 10 of 1864 (376918)
01-14-2007 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by anastasia
01-13-2007 11:27 PM


anastasia
Jesus is God's mental image of Himself. It is an image so perfect and complete that it is of the exact same essence or 'being' as the original. Jesus did not come AFTER God; God always knew what He (God) was, whereas we have to learn and grow and look in the mirror to get an idea of ourselves.
Just where in the bible does it make this assertion? Where is there scripture stating that Jesus was "God's mental image of himself" ?
Yet, Jesus only has existance becuase of God, so He is the SON, the offspring, the Word/Idea of God...He reflects God, and not vice versa. The Will of the Father is the Will of the Son.
Then if he had no existence prior to being born then what do we make of John 8:58?
Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Now we have the Son stating that he was there {before Abraham} before he was born so his existence must in someway be coincident with God. This negates God being his father though.
We also have not established how the Holy spirit works into any of this nor how and why it was the holy spirit part of the trinity that performed the impregnating of Mary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by anastasia, posted 01-13-2007 11:27 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 2:03 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 12 of 1864 (376990)
01-14-2007 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by anastasia
01-14-2007 2:03 PM


anastasia
There is no mention of Trinity in the Bible. There are certain things that don't make sense, or allude to there being a mystery...but all of our current guesses are no more than guesses...they are possible ways of explaining the anomolies in Jesus' speech, like the one you mentioned ; 'Before Abraham was, I Am'.
But why do we assume offhand that the person called Jesus need to be explained by outlandish assumptions such as trinity before eliminating the more likely but mundane possibility that he was not other than some outstanding philosopher of his time. {This is of course assuming he even had an existence rather than being a construct of the apostles imaginations.}
The Trinity is to my knowledge the one guess that fits all of the known 'evidence' without falling apart at another end
It falls apart right off the hop because it requires that we assert 3 different items to in fact be the same item without explanation for how we can justify it.
As you state the bible does not mention such nor does it lend any explanation to this assertion. We can, of course , construct a scenario such as this, but only by assuming properties of the supernatural to exist as a premise and a conclusion to the tales in the bible.
Anomalies of speech can easily be explained if we consider the possibility that the apostles themselves constructed the tales in order to form a religion that allowed them to express their opinions on how they thought philosophically about the world in light of their own experiences. That it became popular as a belief is not surprising since it contains the notion of absolution for crimes that would allow even those most heinous actions to be ultimately redeemed before death took people into the afterlife they also assumed existed.
It is worthwhile to note that other guesses/doctrines have also sprung from the same Biblical 'evidence' but in every case, some application of human thought is needed to fill in the gaps. You just won't find a clear picture in the Bible, or any type of 'solution' spelled out.
But if it was a construct of the imaginations of the apostles would this be incapable of forming a solution? {Admittedly not one shared by believers}
I am not sure if you read my post right. I didn't say Jesus had no existance prior to being born. Trust me, when the church developed the doctrine of the Trinity, they didnt skip over John 8. I said that Jesus HAS NO existance outside of God, not that He didnt exist before He was born as a man.
Where in the bible is it asserted that jesus had an existence before birth? Indeed what is the definition of existence prior to birth anyway? Before you were born what was your existence?
Just think about it; does your mental image of yourself exist if you don't exist? Are you its 'creator' or did it create you?
Neither I think. Since my mental image is a mishmash of memories feelings and body sensations which are a construction of brain in its physical biology it behooves me to point out that it can neither exist prior to my existence nor is it something under my control exactly.
Now, I don't want you to go thinking that God created Jesus, in theological circles that's incorrect; because it means God used 'stuff', that He planned to 'make' Jesus. It is more like Jesus HAS to be there just because God is there. God's image of Himself is eternal, having no beginning or end as He has no beginning or end.
This seems to be going further afield than the OP requires however let us examine this.
Why does Jesus HAVE to be there in this instance other than to support the case for God which is circular reasoning? What allows us to assert the nature of God according to things {mental image ,temporal notion of eternity etc [ themselves illusory ] } when these are attributes of the physical world?
Now, it is only at a certain point in time that the Word was put into a physical body...Jesus was born, BUT before Abraham existed, He Is. He does not say 'I Was' because that is a finite term. It is past tense. God has no past or future, all is NOW, which is a big clue in the Bible for how the Trinity came about as our 'solution'.
Exactly how do you define a NOW without reference to a past or a future Hmm...? I understand that you wish to expand the notion that God has ALL time at his immediate disposal but again is an assertion that creates further problems. What is meant by an action on God's part if time is something that does not apply to him? What is the meaning of a creation without a past or future tense? However this is starting to extend beyond the scope of the original OP.
After all of that, the person of the Holy Spirit is simpler to understand, but more complex in a way also. The Spirit is a force, a power, a conduit. He is the means by which God accomplishes something...God's Will in Action.
Again we have the temporal quality of action that is not yet established in a God that does not operate in time so words like accomplishment and so forth are pretty much meaningless until we have established the notion of time as relates to God.
God willed Jesus to become Man. His Spirit is the Force which made it happen. There can be a misunderstanding that the Spirit of God was put into Mary; that is easy to picture...half man, half God
Now we introduce other difficulties into the fray.Force is normally defined as mass acceleration yet we are not dealing here with physical quantities so I would ask you to define what Force entails here?
But, no, Jesus was put into Mary, and the Spirit is what put Him there. 'By the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus became man'. The wording of the creed is very careful and precise. So, we have the Power of God which comes out of Him, (proceeds from Him). It can't exist without God, and it is not a seperate Being. God uses His power all over the place, He sends out His Spirit, so to speak, but the Spirit does not divide into a million tiny Gods, it is all His Spirit, it is all God, omnipresent, and indivisible. Yet the Spirit is distinct from God. It is God being in all places as a Power, yet not splitting Himself up
Since the egg in Mary's body required sperm in order for her to become pregnant I cannot see how your above explanation applies to the problem of creating a flesh and blood human through the assertion of the interaction of God and his Holy Spirit no matter how convoluted the claim since we are still left incapable of bridging the physical and non physical regardless of mere assertions to the contrary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 2:03 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 6:52 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 38 by ICANT, posted 03-16-2007 2:41 PM sidelined has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 47 of 1864 (389935)
03-16-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ICANT
03-16-2007 1:32 PM


Re: Trin Trinity Trin Trinity Trin Trin Teree ©
ICANT
Doctors do it all the time why should God not be able to do it.
So you are saying that God performed artificial insemination? Really. So just what is God doing putting his Sperm into a married woman?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 03-16-2007 1:32 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024