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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Phat
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Posts: 18458
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3 of 1864 (376786)
01-13-2007 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
01-13-2007 6:10 PM


Trin Trinity Trin Trinity Trin Trin Teree ©
sidelined writes:
I have long wondered just what the notion of a trinity was supposed to explain if the common understanding requires that the three are one.
I also would ask what the explanation is for the pregnancy experienced by Mary {wife of Joseph} if it is the case that the trinity are all the same since this would make Jesus the father of himself.
I imagine that faith and belief forum would be suitable for this topic.
Hey sidelined! I'll give you my personal definition and also several definitions gleaned from various apologetic websites.
  • Tritheism is the teaching that the Godhead is really three separate beings forming three separate gods. This erring view is often misplaced for the doctrine of the Trinity which states that there is but one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
  • Oneness Pentacostalism is another common belief that is said to be in error.
  • Modalism is the error that there is only one person in the Godhead who manifests himself in three forms or manners: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    Personally, I am unsure whether or not I am a Trinitarian or not.
    The Nicene Creed:
    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.
    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.

    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.
    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.
    Imagine that you were outside playing football. You looked up and saw the Sun which was 93 million miles away. The sunlight was shining all over, and the heat was noticeable. Although these are three separate attributes, they originate from one source.
    The plurality study seemed to be a helpful link for those who ascribe to Biblical Inerrant explanations.
    Don't try and logically pin this stuff down.
    IMHO, God is a Spirit (or a vibe) and is perceived not through definitions but by characteristics.
    Edited by Phat, : clarification

    Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
    * * * * * * * * * *

    "Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system. I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance."-
    --Sir Isaac Newton

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by sidelined, posted 01-13-2007 6:10 PM sidelined has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 5 of 1864 (376800)
    01-13-2007 7:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by sidelined
    01-13-2007 7:39 PM


    Re: Trin Trinity Trin Trinity Trin Trin Teree ©
    The creative potential?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by sidelined, posted 01-13-2007 7:39 PM sidelined has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
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    Message 40 of 1864 (389903)
    03-16-2007 3:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
    03-16-2007 3:09 PM


    Re: Re-Trinity
    Ringo writes:
    No part of an egg is an egg. No part of a dozen is a dozen.
    How about the number, Infinity? If we chopped Infinity into two parts, would each part be finite?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by ringo, posted 03-16-2007 3:09 PM ringo has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 56 of 1864 (389995)
    03-17-2007 11:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 55 by tudwell
    03-17-2007 11:14 AM


    Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
    I became intrigued with this idea of Henotheism and so I looked it up and found:
    quote:
    Belief in one god without denying the existence of others.
    This carried me along a brief google search river to this topic
    and the problems between the ways that many of us think and believe. As an example, to a fundamentalist Christian, there may well be one God..be He able to interact in several personal ways or not. Any other manifestations of supernatural (or otherwise unexplainable) manifestation would be ascribed to Satan...since by golly there is One God that runs the show! On a practical level, however, how is this different than the Hebrews and their collection of idols when they were being rebellious?
    In other words, how is Henotheism any different from One God plus idolatry?

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     Message 55 by tudwell, posted 03-17-2007 11:14 AM tudwell has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 57 of 1864 (389997)
    03-17-2007 11:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
    03-17-2007 12:15 AM


    Re: Re-Trinity
    The Trinity is, in my opinion, not a major theological issue.
    Clusty writes:
    Tritheism is the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad. The gods are envisaged as having separate powers and separate supreme beings or spheres of influence but working together. In this respect Tritheism differs from Dualism, which typically envisages two opposed Divine powers in conflict with one another.
    In the depths of my soul, I believe that there is no doubt One God. Whether I make the "mistake" of worshiping Jesus (or the Holy Spirit in the Living Christ)or whether I am worshiping God through The Eucharist or even whether I am worshiping God while driving to work---I believe that the thoughts and intentions of my heart are what is important. All roads may not lead to God but God finds us down the road in which we live, IMB.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 64 of 1864 (390007)
    03-17-2007 1:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by tudwell
    03-17-2007 1:03 PM


    Re: Not henotheism
    I think the sticking point is the idea of how many spirits there actually are. I maintain One Holy Spirit and a subset of imitators...wannabes...hence two basic spirits. The argument of how to spot the real McCoy from the army of fakes is valid. My answer is that the real Spirit finds you...you do not find God. IOW there may be many paths up the mountain but only one wise sage at the top.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 67 of 1864 (390044)
    03-17-2007 9:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 65 by jar
    03-17-2007 1:22 PM


    Re: Not henotheism
    No...its that people don't acknowledge her.....(and I still don't know why you say "she" since Jesus is male)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by jar, posted 03-17-2007 1:22 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 71 of 1864 (390090)
    03-18-2007 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 68 by jar
    03-18-2007 12:47 AM


    Re: Not henotheism
    I'll go with the former statement.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 78 of 1864 (703451)
    07-22-2013 8:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 72 by jar
    03-18-2007 11:52 AM


    Re: Not henotheism
    jar writes:
    Is that correct?
    Have you thought that through?
    Do you understand the implications of that?
    Here it is took me 6 years to answer you!
    I agree with your assessment that God does not pick and choose among people...but He allows for us to freely and logically find our path. For some, it may not include belief. In this instance, I agree with you that we are judged in part by what we do versus what we believe, but I would add that what we believe may influence what we do and how we do it.

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     Message 72 by jar, posted 03-18-2007 11:52 AM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 80 of 1864 (735403)
    08-13-2014 6:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
    03-17-2007 12:29 PM


    Re: Re-Trinity
    ringo writes:
    If God is all-powerful, how can the Tempter, the Prosecuter, etc. not be a part of Him?
    Because that would make God Schizophrenic.

    ...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 83 of 1864 (735456)
    08-15-2014 4:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
    08-15-2014 11:40 AM


    Re: Re-Trinity
    The dogma that I ascribe to shows the tempter, satan, as a created being. There is only One Creator. Granted you can argue that He plays all of the roles, but it makes more sense for Him to be good, rather than complete. Jeffrey Dahmer is a human with a mental disorder, not a Creator of all seen and unseen.
    I suppose you could argue that God is like Seth MacFarlane and plays multiple roles---but that makes no sense to me.

    ...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 88 of 1864 (735530)
    08-17-2014 8:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
    08-16-2014 11:47 AM


    Re: Re-Trinity
    You seem to be mixing up what it is that a Creator creates versus what a Creator is. An artist can paint a picture of many zoo animals but that does not make the artist a zebra.
    God may well have created evil(more likely the possibility of evil) but that does not make God defacto evil. Get my point?

    ...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 95 of 1864 (735572)
    08-18-2014 3:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
    08-17-2014 2:13 PM


    The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
    Creating the possibility of evil does not make the Creator evil.
    Choosing which attributes you wish to emulate was only made possible by virtue of the fact that the Creator did not make ypu only able to behave in a singular and limited fashion.
    Had the Creator made it so that you were destined to only act out a limited trait, that limitation imposed on you would make you doomed and Him evil.
    On the other hand, had the Creator made it so that you would never experience evil, He may well have done you a disservice by limiting the scope of your experience.
    You can call Him evil if you like, and I will always disagree with you.

    ...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-17-2014 2:13 PM ringo has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 97 of 1864 (735604)
    08-18-2014 4:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
    08-18-2014 11:53 AM


    Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
    You could at least try to be consistent. You want Sky Daddy to take care of you so you never have to grow up but you also want to take the responsibility whenever Sky Daddy doesn't take care of you.
    I could say the same about you. You want humans to be responsible for their behavior and claim that the gods don't listen anyway...and yet you pin the label on God as being responsible for evil. In essence, you believe that if there is one God, he is evil and that we humans are better off without him. Wonder who whispered that logic into your ear?
    One more thing: Being in communion with God does not mean that we never grow up. I could be in communion with a bank via a personal trust and it wouldnt mean that I couldnt count. It would simply mean that I and the bank had a common interest---managing my money.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    ...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18458
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 103 of 1864 (735653)
    08-20-2014 2:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
    08-20-2014 1:46 PM


    Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
    allowing the possibility of evil as a choice would actually compliment evolution, as the weaker people would fall in the hole and the stronger ones would avoid it.

    ...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 102 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 1:46 PM ringo has replied

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