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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1066 of 1147 (905325)
01-23-2023 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1065 by Tangle
01-23-2023 10:57 AM


Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
You still haven't answered my question I notice.
How do you expect me to answer your question when you decided beforehand that it was a rhetorical question designed to have no rational answer EXCEPT your conclusion that Evidence has eliminated God as a reasonable answer.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2023 10:57 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1072 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2023 11:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 1067 of 1147 (905326)
01-23-2023 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1065 by Tangle
01-23-2023 10:57 AM


Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
I think the majority of us are waiting for answers from Phat. He has taken many threads off-topic and never addresses criticisms or questions.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2023 10:57 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1069 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 11:26 AM Theodoric has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1068 of 1147 (905327)
01-23-2023 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1064 by Phat
01-23-2023 10:57 AM


Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
Phat writes:
Why do you keep stating this "lack of evidence" argument as if it thus becomes a fact?
Evidence is fact. Facts are evidence. Lack of evidence is lack of fact. There can not be fact without evidence.
Why would you even ask that question?
Phat writes:
You once argued that we havent looked everywhere yet.
The argument there was about the meaning of "knowledge". I said that we don't "know" for sure, just because we don't have any facts.
Phat writes:
Perhaps you should reexamine your inner space...
Re-examine your own inner space. i have thought much more about it than you have.
Phat writes:
... rather than proclaiming your conclusions as the reality in everyone elses outer space.
Reality is reality whether you like it or not.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 10:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1070 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 11:32 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1069 of 1147 (905328)
01-23-2023 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1067 by Theodoric
01-23-2023 11:04 AM


Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
Theo writes:
I think the majority of us are waiting for answers from Phat.
Lets be more precise. You all are waiting for me to put my foot in my mouth and confirm YOUR answer(that there really *is* no GOD) or try and "make shit up" in order to dance around your foregone conclusions. You have a lot of quick conclusions yourself. One example is your quick branding of Douglas Murray as a racist. I presented a video response that had him honestly and thoughtfully responding to a philosophical debate with two other noted scholars: Does God Exist? A Conversation with Tom Holland, Stephen Meyer, and Douglas Murray
This is one of the better debate/discussions I have watched. I highly recommend this debate.
You, however, are so set in your ways that you are even less likely to even watch a conservative source ( Hoover Institution) than would I be to watch some world view that you would defend. You and I likely will never agree. You vilify me by calling me out for every "sin" I've ever committed against you personally or your character but what you really fear is that I myself am waking up and am well able to defend conservative arguments against your world view,.( which you think is the best way and indeed the ONLY way.)
...He has taken many threads off-topic and never addresses criticisms or questions.
Pot meet Kettle. I know for a fact that you will never watch the video debate since in your elitist attitude you claim that
  • WE don't debate by video, around here (says whom?)
  • Murray is a racist. (Cop-out! He shows no racist tendencies in his debate with Tom Holland and Stephen Meyer.) You just like to whine like a hurt stepchild. Either grow up or crawl back under your rock.
    For any of the rest of you with an open mind, check the debate(from a conservative thinktank) out.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1067 by Theodoric, posted 01-23-2023 11:04 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1071 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 11:38 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 1077 by Theodoric, posted 01-23-2023 2:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 17035
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 1070 of 1147 (905329)
    01-23-2023 11:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 1068 by ringo
    01-23-2023 11:11 AM


    Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
    ringo:
    i have thought much more about it than you have.
    How can you even say such a thing with a straight face?! I do more thinking on the pot than you do all day at the library! I think more because I am trying to come to some conclusions. You have already concluded that you are right and fall back on preconceived conclusions rather than further investigation.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1068 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 11:11 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1073 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 11:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20810
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 1071 of 1147 (905330)
    01-23-2023 11:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 1069 by Phat
    01-23-2023 11:26 AM


    Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
    Phat writes:
    You all are waiting for me to put my foot in my mouth....
    You already have an infantry division in your mouth.
    Phat writes:
    One example is your quick branding of Douglas Murray as a racist.
    It doesn't take long to spot a racist. The guys in the white robes and pointy hats are racists.
    Phat writes:
    I presented a video response that had him honestly and thoughtfully responding to a philosophical debate with two other noted scholars
    How does that make him not a racist?
    Phat writes:
    Cop-out! He shows no racist tendencies in his debate with Tom Holland and Stephen Meyer.
    So that's your logic? If there's ONE place where he doesn't display racism he's not a racist? There were several places where Charles Manson didn't commit murder, so he was not a murderer?
    Phat writes:
    For any of the rest of you with an open mind, check the debate(from a conservative thinktank) out.
    I'll watch your videos when you start responding to my rebuttals.

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1069 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 11:26 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 8887
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 1072 of 1147 (905332)
    01-23-2023 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 1066 by Phat
    01-23-2023 11:03 AM


    Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
    Phat writes:
    How do you expect me to answer your question when you decided beforehand that it was a rhetorical question designed to have no rational answer EXCEPT your conclusion that Evidence has eliminated God as a reasonable answer.
    I expect you to be able to defend something you believe.
    I'd accept the answer that it's a problem that you can't resolve but your faith requires you to believe it anyway. That would be honest and show that you've at least thought about it and recognised the logical paradox involved.
    It's not a rhetorical question, it's a serious philosophical problem and there are other possible conclusions than god does not exist.
    But even if my mind is made up, I want to hear your argument. If you have one.

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1066 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 11:03 AM Phat has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20810
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    (1)
    Message 1073 of 1147 (905333)
    01-23-2023 11:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 1070 by Phat
    01-23-2023 11:32 AM


    Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    i have thought much more about it than you have.
    How can you even say such a thing with a straight face?!
    How can you deny it with any shape of face?
    Phat writes:
    I do more thinking on the pot than you do all day at the library!
    Clearly not. Your posts don't demonstrate much thought at all.
    Phat writes:
    I think more because I am trying to come to some conclusions.
    You're trying to swallow the conclusions that those right-wing fanatics are trying to shove down your throat. But you can't because your mouth is too full of feet.
    Phat writes:
    You have already concluded that you are right and fall back on preconceived conclusions rather than further investigation.
    That's a stupid thing to say. There are lots of people who agree with my conclusions. Lots of people have drawn the same conclusions independently. We are the ones who investigate thoroughly.
    Your conclusions aren't even self-consistent. You contradict yourself constantly. You refuse to investigate anything but sources that confirm your biases.
    You refuse to discuss anything. When you start discussing the rebuttals of your nonsense, you can criticize other people's conclusions.

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1070 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 11:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9296
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 3.2


    (1)
    Message 1074 of 1147 (905335)
    01-23-2023 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 1028 by candle2
    01-21-2023 11:39 AM


    Re: Simplistically Speaking
    candle2 writes:
    Taq, a so-called theistic evolutionists is no more a
    Christian than a liberal man who puts on a dress and
    lipstick is a woman.
    Right. And a True Scotsman doesn't put sugar in his porridge.
    God leaves nothing to chance; only humans do this.
    Perhaps you should read up on the difference between ontological randomness and statistical randomness. The theory of evolution, and all of science, uses statistical randomness. That is, something is considered random if it fits a statistical model of randomness. However, no one makes claims about the supernatural that could perhaps control the process in a way that is indistinguishable from randomness.
    If you have a problem with evolution for being random, then you will need to reject the bulk of science. For example, thermodynamics is based on randomness. Do you reject thermodynamics?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1028 by candle2, posted 01-21-2023 11:39 AM candle2 has not replied

      
    candle2
    Member
    Posts: 316
    Joined: 12-31-2018


    Message 1075 of 1147 (905337)
    01-23-2023 12:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 1057 by Tangle
    01-23-2023 4:10 AM


    Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
    Tangle, tell me how it is possible to create an
    environment without pain and suffering when the
    inhabitants are flesh and blood humans.
    Humans have needs. We have emotions; often strong
    emotions.
    Humans get sick. We feel pain. We feel jealousy.
    Those who join the God family will be Spirit Beings.
    We will not have physical needs.
    Our character of outgoing love for each other will be
    permanent.
    Now you tell me how it is possible for human beings
    To live in absolute joy without anything bad ever
    happening to them.
    God owes us nothing. However, He is offering each of
    us the opportunity to become a member of the God
    family.
    But, He knows the best way to do this.
    Pain and suffering are not enjoyable but they do help
    us to grow and realize how much we need for Christ
    to return to earth and set up His Kingdom.
    He gave us a taste of what His Kingdom will be like
    when healed the sick and fed the poor.
    You still need to tell us exactly how mortal humans can
    live without experiencing any pain and suffering.
    If you were all powerful, how would you accomplish this?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1057 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2023 4:10 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1076 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2023 12:33 PM candle2 has replied
     Message 1078 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 2:58 PM candle2 has not replied
     Message 1079 by Taq, posted 01-23-2023 3:57 PM candle2 has not replied
     Message 1080 by GDR, posted 01-23-2023 4:49 PM candle2 has replied
     Message 1081 by Phat, posted 01-24-2023 3:00 PM candle2 has not replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 8887
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 1076 of 1147 (905339)
    01-23-2023 12:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 1075 by candle2
    01-23-2023 12:21 PM


    Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
    candle writes:
    Tangle, tell me how it is possible to create an
    environment without pain and suffering when the
    inhabitants are flesh and blood humans.
    There are several answers to that question, here's three
    1. God is all powerful, are you saying that he's not?
    2. God has created at least two places for humans that are free of suffering, the Garden of Eden and heaven, so where's the difficulty?
    3. There is no reason why we need to be flesh and blood; a soul is enough for both heaven and hell is it not?

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1075 by candle2, posted 01-23-2023 12:21 PM candle2 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1130 by candle2, posted 02-01-2023 11:11 AM Tangle has replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 8082
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    (1)
    Message 1077 of 1147 (905342)
    01-23-2023 2:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 1069 by Phat
    01-23-2023 11:26 AM


    Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
    It is not surprising as a racist yourself, you can not see the racism of Murray. The pieces from his book that you think show how wonderful he is, ooze with racism.
    Just because Alex Jones does not lie about Sand Hook every time he speaks does not make him not guilty about lying about Sandy Hook. The video you have such a hardon for is irrelevant to anything I have said or posted about Murray.
    WE don't debate by video, around here (says whom?)
    Says the forum rules. Another reason you were such a shitty moderator. You didn't even know or follow the forum rules.
    https://www.evcforum.net/PresentHTML.php?control=webpagep...
    Here you go maybe you should read them. If you then still don't understand, reach out I am sure someone may be willing to explain them to you.
    Theo writes:
    He has taken many threads off-topic and never addresses criticisms or questions.
    Phat writes:
    Crickets
    Again he doesn't address this. All he does is resort to attacking me and "but look at you"
    The only thing worse than a troll is a willfully ignorant troll.
    Murray is a racist, misogynist hack.
    The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray review – a rightwing diatribe | Society books | The Guardian
    Why Douglas Murray’s “Strange Death of Europe” Is a Far-Right Hit — And Wrong

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1069 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 11:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20810
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    (2)
    Message 1078 of 1147 (905345)
    01-23-2023 2:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 1075 by candle2
    01-23-2023 12:21 PM


    Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
    candle2 writes:
    You still need to tell us exactly how mortal humans can
    live without experiencing any pain and suffering.

    If you were all powerful, how would you accomplish this?
    Just to be clear, will you give us a list of all the things your "all-powerful" God can NOT do?

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1075 by candle2, posted 01-23-2023 12:21 PM candle2 has not replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9296
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 1079 of 1147 (905346)
    01-23-2023 3:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 1075 by candle2
    01-23-2023 12:21 PM


    Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
    candle2 writes:
    Those who join the God family will be Spirit Beings.
    We will not have physical needs.

    Our character of outgoing love for each other will be
    permanent.
    Then why not start that way?
    Now you tell me how it is possible for human beings
    To live in absolute joy without anything bad ever
    happening to them.
    Isn't that what heaven is?
    Pain and suffering are not enjoyable but they do help
    us to grow and realize how much we need for Christ
    to return to earth and set up His Kingdom.
    What does there even have to be an Earth? Why not put the souls directly into heaven?
    You still need to tell us exactly how mortal humans can
    live without experiencing any pain and suffering.

    If you were all powerful, how would you accomplish this?
    Create heaven and put people in heaven.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1075 by candle2, posted 01-23-2023 12:21 PM candle2 has not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 5920
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.3


    (1)
    Message 1080 of 1147 (905348)
    01-23-2023 4:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 1075 by candle2
    01-23-2023 12:21 PM


    Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
    candle2 writes:
    Those who join the God family will be Spirit Beings.
    We will not have physical needs.
    Actually that isn't Biblical. That belief came from Plato. This happened when the early Christian church allowed itself to be influenced by the Greco-Roman thing after Constantine.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1075 by candle2, posted 01-23-2023 12:21 PM candle2 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1082 by candle2, posted 01-25-2023 10:03 AM GDR has not replied
     Message 1083 by candle2, posted 01-25-2023 11:21 AM GDR has replied
     Message 1084 by candle2, posted 01-25-2023 2:01 PM GDR has not replied

      
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