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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 886 of 963 (902237)
11-19-2022 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 885 by PaulK
11-19-2022 4:56 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
Paulk, do you believe that tens of thousands of Egyptian
Soldiers drowned in up to six inches of water?
Do you believe that the remains of all the soldiers, their
chariots, and horses vanished in ankle deep water and
left no trace whatsoever?
Do you believe that the few inches of water had the
Israelites boxed in?
Why didn't the Israelites go around the small body of
water?
Why didn't the Egyptians go around the small body of
water and head the Israelitesoff?
I'll be waiting for your answers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2022 4:56 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 890 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2022 1:20 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 887 of 963 (902239)
11-19-2022 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 884 by Theodoric
11-19-2022 4:43 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
Theodiric, when you say that it never happened, you are
placing yourself in a position in which you are asserting
more than an opinion.
You are stating what you consider to be a fact.
Back this up.
Or, simply admit that it is nothing more than the
musing of someone who is intellectually lazy.
One other option is to admit that it is only your opinion
that it never happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 884 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2022 4:43 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 888 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2022 9:00 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 889 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2022 9:12 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 888 of 963 (902241)
11-19-2022 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 887 by candle2
11-19-2022 7:21 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
There is no evidence for it. I can not prove a negative. Provide actual evidence and I will reconsider. Until then it is all myth.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by candle2, posted 11-19-2022 7:21 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 889 of 963 (902242)
11-19-2022 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 887 by candle2
11-19-2022 7:21 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
Or, simply admit that it is nothing more than the
musing of someone who is intellectually lazy.
I have been on archaeological digs in the "holy land". I have studied and worked under the guidance of Anson Rainey and Ze'ev Herzog. I have 6 books on Egyptian history in my book case. 10 on the bible and its historicity.
Intellectually lazy? Demanding actual evidence is lazy?
Back under your rock troll.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by candle2, posted 11-19-2022 7:21 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 891 by Phat, posted 11-20-2022 2:50 AM Theodoric has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 890 of 963 (902245)
11-20-2022 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 886 by candle2
11-19-2022 6:00 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
You’ve already had answers to most of them. In the post you reply to, so you can’t honestly pretend that you haven’t.
And I’ll leave you to show that the Bitter Lakes were a “small body 0f water” that could be easily walked around - while under sustained attack.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by candle2, posted 11-19-2022 6:00 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 891 of 963 (902246)
11-20-2022 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by Theodoric
11-19-2022 9:12 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
I did a bit of detective work. Have you ever heard of Hershel Shanks? He wrote an article on your mentor, Ze'ev Herzog. Herzog's Attack on the Bible Unjustified Herzog was portrayed as a "Biblical Minimalist" and no doubt contributed to many of your assertions that evidence was lacking. Shanks seems to have another view. I told you there were two sides to every story!
I do respect your experience, however, and am in no position to question it. My only question is whether you share much of Herzog's views or whether you are open-minded enough to form your own opinions on whether the exodus happened (at least in some way, even if but a few families participated) and whether you too consider yourself a Biblical Minimalist or entertain the scholarly opinions of men like Hershel Shanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2022 9:12 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 892 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2022 10:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 892 of 963 (902248)
11-20-2022 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 891 by Phat
11-20-2022 2:50 AM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
"Although he had never formally studied the Bible or archaeology,"
He was spouting his religion, not the scholarship.
The BAR is not a respected scholarly publication. No one in actual historical studies and archaeology ever gave a rat's ass about his opinion. Shanks did not "write an article" Herzog. It is a letter to the editor nothing more nothing less. It is a political screed without presenting any evidence of any kind to oppose Herzog's position. Scholarship and evidence have changed greatly in the 20+ years since Shanks wrote this(and in the 40 years since I have been to that part of the world) and while there has been no new evidence to support Shanks, there has been plenty to support Herzog.
Your post shows the ridiculousness and stupidity of the evangelical right. You think everyone is heavily influenced and parrots what they have read and been told(like you). True scholars(I am just a pale imitation of one) take in everything they have learned and come to a rational, logic-based conclusion. That conclusion is a moving target as there is always more evidence.
Herzog was not a mentor, but he was someone I did learn from. I mentioned him and Rainey solely to point out and refute the intellectually lazy comment from your coreligionist candle2.
Searching names in google is not detective work. A good detective actually reads what they find and examines the relevance.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Phat, posted 11-20-2022 2:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 893 by candle2, posted 11-20-2022 2:04 PM Theodoric has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 893 of 963 (902252)
11-20-2022 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 892 by Theodoric
11-20-2022 10:22 AM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
Theodoric, stop acting dumb. Anybody who cares about
an issue will examine it from all angles.
I allow the facts, the way that I interpret them, to shape
my beliefs.
And stop pretending that we so-called "right wing
Christians" are trying to FORCE you to think a certain
way.
I don't care how or what you think. And, you will not be
censored or sent to your room for not believing the way
that I do.
This is a discussion board. It is where we exchange ideas.
I have been presenting my evidence for the Red Sea
Crossing and for Mount Sinai being in Saudi Arabia.
You have presented nothing to show otherwise.
Saying it never happened is simply a cop out for the
intellectually lazy, such as yourself, Herzog, and Rainey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2022 10:22 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2022 3:04 PM candle2 has replied
 Message 898 by ringo, posted 11-21-2022 11:43 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 894 of 963 (902255)
11-20-2022 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 893 by candle2
11-20-2022 2:04 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
You have presented absolutely no evidence just assertions. You are not debating you are preaching. Present the evidence if it exists. If not, move on.
Strop being a troll.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by candle2, posted 11-20-2022 2:04 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 895 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 10:05 AM Theodoric has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 895 of 963 (902265)
11-21-2022 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 894 by Theodoric
11-20-2022 3:04 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
Theodoric, I have presented evidence, and lots of it.
How did the coral encrusted chariot wheels, including
the golden chariot wheel, chariot axles, etc..., which fit
the ones in use by Egypt during the time of Moses, come
to be in the exact location where Moses parted the Red
Sea?
Numerous individuals, both male and female, have
provided photographic evidence of this.
Why is the top of Jabal al Lawz black, as though
blackened with fire and heat? When turned over the
rocks are brown-the same color as the other mountain
peaks?
The top of Mt. Sinai is evidence that God was indeed
over the mountain for an extended period of time.
Could there be another reason for this phenomenon?
Perhaps, but I highly doubt it. At least, it is evidence for
Moses being there.
There are two altars at this mountain. One fits the
description of Moses' altar. The other one could have
been built for the golden calf.
Does this prove they are the ones described in Exodus?
No. But at the very least, they are evidence for them
being there.
The petroglyphs of bulls on the rocks are not, excuse the
pun, rock solid evidence of the Israelites being there, bit it
is evidence that they could have been there.
The ancient cemetery close to the mountain is large
enough to contain 3000 graves (the number of deaths
reported by Exodus.
This does not prove that the cemetery contain the 3000
dead Israelites, but it is evidence.
The cave on Jabal al Lawz might or might not have been
the cave that Elijah stayed in, but it is evidence.
The valley at Jabal al Lawz covers an expanse of 10,000
acres. Does this prove that the Israelites sojourned there?
No, but it is evidence that there was room enough to
accommodate them.
Psalm 77:19 "Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the
great waters, and thy footsteps are not known."
How would people from over 3000 years ago know that
there was a natural crossing path under the sea between
Nuweiba and SA?
The path is composed of sand. There is no mud in which
to bog them down.
Does this prove they crossed there? No, but it is strong
evidence that David was aware of this thirty centuries
ago.
There is much more evidence for Moses and the crossing
of the Red Sea than there is that life began by a complex
chemical reaction-which scientists cannot duplicate today.
You are going to believe what you believe, evidence or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 894 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2022 3:04 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 896 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2022 10:51 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 897 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2022 11:41 AM candle2 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 896 of 963 (902272)
11-21-2022 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 895 by candle2
11-21-2022 10:05 AM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
You have not presented evidence. You have asserted. Evidence is not the random screed of someone on the internet. It is showing the research and the data that supports your assertion. It is not up to us to try to find something that supports you or contradicts you.
Present the evidence or move along to someplace where evidence-free assertions are acceptable discourse.
Hitchens said it best
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
ABE
None of your assertions are true. To start there are no coral-encrusted chariot wheels. There is no golden chariot wheel. Only a moron would make a chariot wheel out of gold. It would lose its shape in hours. A golden chariot wheel would be in a museum not in the sea. Why have no legitimate historians or archaeologists presented this evidence? Why are you such a troll?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 10:05 AM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 897 of 963 (902288)
11-21-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 895 by candle2
11-21-2022 10:05 AM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
You’ve provided rather less evidence than you claim.
quote:
How did the coral encrusted chariot wheels, including
the golden chariot wheel, chariot axles, etc..., which fit
the ones in use by Egypt during the time of Moses, come
to be in the exact location where Moses parted the Red
Sea?
We don’t know that the coral structures contain chariot wheels, and the reported presence of iron is against it.
The “gold chariot wheel” - which does not look much like a genuine Egyptian chariot wheel, is probably a small brass hand wheel planted at the site by Ron Wyatt.
And the claim that the site is “where Moses parted the Red Sea” is almost certainly false. Indeed, since the supposed chariot remains are the main evidence for that claim it’s circular.
And “the exact ones in use at the time of Moses” is only true if you’re prepared to accept the absurd rewrite of Egyptian history offered by the Wyatt camp. Since I am not prepared to believe that Moses was two different people (or any of the other nonsense invented by Wyatt and his supporters) that’s really a non-starter.
quote:
Why is the top of Jabal al Lawz black, as though
blackened with fire and heat? When turned over the
rocks are brown-the same color as the other mountain
peaks?
It’s the natural colour of the rock. So not evidence for your claims at all.
quote:
There are two altars at this mountain. One fits the
description of Moses' altar. The other one could have
been built for the golden calf
Not true. The first “altar” isn’t an altar, it’s just some walls presumed to be associated with an altar.
quote:
The petroglyphs of bulls on the rocks are not, excuse the
pun, rock solid evidence of the Israelites being there, bit it
is evidence that they could have been there.
It’s insignificant as evidence, the more so since there are a lot of petroglyphs - at that site and others - and only a very few of cattle.
quote:
The ancient cemetery close to the mountain is large
enough to contain 3000 graves (the number of deaths
reported by Exodus.
I guess if you’re desperate then you have to clutch at straws, but the size of the cemetery is hardly significant evidence - it’s not worth mentioning.
The cave and the size of the valley are likewise too insignificant.
quote:
Psalm 77:19 "Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the
great waters, and thy footsteps are not known."

How would people from over 3000 years ago know that
there was a natural crossing path under the sea between
Nuweiba and SA?
Where does Psalm 77 say that it is about Nuweiba? And doesn’t the fact that there is no “natural crossing path” rather rule out any knowledge? Just admit that Ron Wyatt screwed up with the satellite data.

Really if this is the best you have, you have nothing. You should have taken the time to research the issues. To look at all sides. Instead of gullibly falling for this nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 10:05 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 899 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 1:48 PM PaulK has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 898 of 963 (902289)
11-21-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 893 by candle2
11-20-2022 2:04 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
candle2 writes:
Saying it never happened is simply a cop out for the
intellectually lazy, such as yourself, Herzog, and Rainey.
By your logic, it would be intellectually lazy to say that Star Wars never happened.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by candle2, posted 11-20-2022 2:04 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 899 of 963 (902307)
11-21-2022 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 897 by PaulK
11-21-2022 11:41 AM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
Paulk, more evidence that Moses the Red Sea at
Nuweiba Beach.
Numbers 33: 7-8 "And they removed from Etham, and
turned unto Pi-Hahiroth, which is before (facing)
Ba-al-Zephon: and they camped before (facing) Migdol.
And they departed from before Pi-Hahiroth (now they are
facing away from Pi-Hahiroth, and moving towards Baal-
Zephon, on the SA side of the Sea) and passed through
the midst of the Sea.
Migdol refers to a tower; a lookout; a fort; or a vantage
point in the foothills of the wadi watir that leads to
Nuweiba Beach.
Egyptian sources describe there being such a vantage
point (fortress) on the Egyptian's north-east border.
Nuweiba Beach / Pi-Hahiroth is also located on the
North-East border.
Pi-Hahiroth comes from "Peh" meaning mouth. And
"Chowr" meaning cavity, gorges, cave, and hole.
Pi-Hahiroth simply means "Mouth of the gorges."
George's refers to a narrow valley between hills or
mountains, typically with steep rocky walls, and oftentimes
with a stream running through.
This fits perfectly with being on Nuweiba Beach and
looking up through the Wadi watir.
Baal was linked to a midianite site of worship to the god
Baal of Zephon, in present day SA, directly across from
Nuweiba, about four miles from the Red Sea at
Saraf al-Bal.
Ball was a supposedly powerful god of the Canaanites
and SA. Baal was not the God of the Egyotians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 897 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2022 11:41 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 900 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2022 2:16 PM candle2 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 900 of 963 (902311)
11-21-2022 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 899 by candle2
11-21-2022 1:48 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
quote:
Paulk, more evidence that Moses the Red Sea at
Nuweiba Beach.
Given the complete unsuitability of the crossing you are going to need much better evidence than you have offered so far. And which Moses was it? Tuthosis or Senmut?
quote:
Numbers 33: 7-8 "And they removed from Etham, and
turned unto Pi-Hahiroth, which is before (facing)
Ba-al-Zephon: and they camped before (facing) Migdol.

And they departed from before Pi-Hahiroth (now they are
facing away from Pi-Hahiroth, and moving towards Baal-
Zephon, on the SA side of the Sea) and passed through
the midst of the Sea.

Migdol refers to a tower; a lookout; a fort; or a vantage
point in the foothills of the wadi watir that leads to
Nuweiba Beach.
Why do you think it doesn’t mean Migdol?
Wikipedia
Migdol is east of the Dwelling of the Lion,[5] which has been located at Tell el-Borg,[6] near the north coast of the Sinai Peninsula and the estuary of the Ballah Lakes.
quote:
Egyptian sources describe there being such a vantage
point (fortress) on the Egyptian's north-east border.

Nuweiba Beach / Pi-Hahiroth is also located on the
North-East border.
It isn’t on the border as such, is it? It’s a way down the coast on the Gulf of Aqaba. So without more evidence than a vague geographical reference that probably refers to somewhere else that isn’t even called Migdol it’s not exactly looking good for you.
quote:
Pi-Hahiroth comes from "Peh" meaning mouth. And
"Chowr" meaning cavity, gorges, cave, and hole.

Pi-Hahiroth simply means "Mouth of the gorges."

George's refers to a narrow valley between hills or
mountains, typically with steep rocky walls, and oftentimes
with a stream running through.

This fits perfectly with being on Nuweiba Beach and
looking up through the Wadi watir.
Shame that the text makes absolutely no reference to any such feature in the area. And a speculative translation - which is what you have - is hardly enough evidence.
quote:
Baal was linked to a midianite site of worship to the god
Baal of Zephon, in present day SA, directly across from
Nuweiba, about four miles from the Red Sea at
Saraf al-Bal.

Ball was a supposedly powerful god of the Canaanites
and SA. Baal was not the God of the Egyotians.
Don’t forget that there were Canaanites living in Egypt. The suggestion that it refers to Arsinoe seems more plausible to me.
So again, all very, very weak, and not nearly enough to deal with the fact that the crossing would be very difficult. Ron Wyatt thought it was only 300’ deep the whole way across - that’s the “land bridge”. Turned out he just didn’t understand the data.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 899 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 1:48 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 901 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 3:05 PM PaulK has replied

  
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