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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
candle2
Member
Posts: 316
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1051 of 1147 (905303)
01-22-2023 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1038 by Tangle
01-22-2023 10:32 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Tangle, you ask why would a living God make His creation
suffer if He had an alternative.
This is a fair question, and one that I used to ask myself.
The truth is that God wants us to experience this.
Adam and Eve had no life experiences with which to assist
them when confronted with Satan and his powers of
deception.
There are two ways of life. One is the way of "get." Satan is
the father of this way.
The other (God's way) is the way of "give."
The way of "get" is exemplified by extreme self-centeredness.
It involves greed; competition; and get ahead at all cost.
Characteristics of "get" involve jealousy, pride, lack of empathy,
and the belief that rules don't apply to them.
God's way of "give" is centered on outgoing love and genuine
concern for others. It involves co-ooeration and sharing credit
with all.
The fruits of "give" is gentleness; joy; goodness; love;
meekness; and, faith.
Satan was placed on the earth with many angels under him.
Their responsibility was to put the finishing touches to the
created earth.
Satan and his minion rebelled against God. The results was a
destroyed earth, as well as much of the solar system. Who
knows what portions of the galaxy and universe were
affected.
When God places someone in a position of power they remain
in that position until a replacement is found.
Adam was to replace Satan, but he failed to qualify.
God was aware that Adam would fail long before it
came to fruition.
This is why Christ clearly understood long before the
foundation of the earth that He would die for our sins.
What humans experience under the rule of Satan and his
way of get is pain, misery and death.
It can be extremely painful at times to be a human living
in a world governed by "get."
But, it gives us what Adam and Eve didn't have when
confronted by Satan. And, that is the knowledge of the
heartache caused by this way of life.
Look at all the wars that have bee the result of (not God)
sin.
Matthew tells us that a time is coming that we would
completely destroy all life on earth if Christ did not
come back and intervene.
We will know beyond any doubt the results of living
under Satan and his way of "get."
The vast majority of Christians believe that the second
resurrection is when sinners will be sentenced to hell.
But, this is far from the truth. The second resurrection is
a resurrection to correction.
The books of life are opened. This is the same as opening
the tree of life, or the water of life for all humans who have
ever lived, with the exception of those in the first resurrection.
There are some who devoted their lives to Satan and his cause
for wealth, power, and fame who will be in the third resurrection
when they will be sentenced to eternal death.
Also, some are so evil and despicable that they will also be
In the third resurrection.
In any event, those in the second resurrection (who are
raised as flesh and blood human) will be told that Christ
hàs paid their death penalty. What they do from that
point forward determined their eternity.
Christ will give each of us an opportunity to live life the
way he intends for us.
He will not have to say take my word for it that my way
is far better; we will have our former life to compare it
with.
Those who allow God's Holy Spirit to change them will
Be turned to living Sons of God. Part of the God family.
Those who do not change will then be destroyed for all
of eternity. Since they were resurrected as flesh and
blood they will be consumed.
There is much, much more than this. This is simply a
condensed version.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1038 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2023 10:32 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1054 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2023 5:11 PM candle2 has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6231
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1052 of 1147 (905305)
01-22-2023 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1042 by candle2
01-22-2023 1:14 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
However, they were filled with God's Holy Spirit. And they
lived with Jesus for over three years.
You seem to be suggesting that being filled with "God's Holy Spirit" turns people into mindless robotic zombies.
Here's the real point. You are trying to argue that what they said shows that Adam and Eve were real people. It doesn't. People often talk about fictional characters without mentioning that they are fictional. Such talk is not evidence that Adam and Eve were real people. It is only evidence that their story was well known.
There are many Christians, not just TEs, who take the early part of Genesis to be allegorical. That's a well respected view within Christianity.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 1:14 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1053 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 5:02 PM nwr has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 316
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1053 of 1147 (905306)
01-22-2023 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1052 by nwr
01-22-2023 4:15 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
Nwr, you know that this isn't what i am suggesting.
It is the Spirit of a sound mind.
It gives us strength to exert self-control over our
lives.
The Holy Spirit has enabled me to overcome many
faults and weaknesses during my life. I still have to
guard against my desires.
The Holy Spirit contains the very minds of Jesus and
the Father.
A person who has never had the Holy Spirit dwell in
them is not one who should be offering suggestions
about It.
If you do not want to believe that Adam and Eve were
real people, then don't.
The Holy Bible, as well as Jesus, says they were
real.
And, I believe it completely.
And, as I said before, the number of people who
believe a certain way has nothing to do with
whether something is true or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1052 by nwr, posted 01-22-2023 4:15 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1055 by nwr, posted 01-22-2023 5:11 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 1061 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 10:41 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(4)
Message 1054 of 1147 (905307)
01-22-2023 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1051 by candle2
01-22-2023 3:03 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
candle writes:
Tangle, you ask why would a living God make His creation
suffer if He had an alternative.

The truth is that God wants us to experience this.
Then he is evil.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1051 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 3:03 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1056 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 6:35 PM Tangle has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6231
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1055 of 1147 (905308)
01-22-2023 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1053 by candle2
01-22-2023 5:02 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
The Holy Bible, as well as Jesus, says they were
real.
False. That's an interpretation that you are reading into it.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 5:02 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 316
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1056 of 1147 (905310)
01-22-2023 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Tangle
01-22-2023 5:11 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Tangle, evil would be to create humans as mindless
robots that have no emotions or self determination.
We humans, under the influence of Satan, cause each
other pain and suffering.
God would rather us not smoke but He won't prevent
our hand from into our shit pocket for a cigarette.
Not bearing false witness does not cause evil to happen.
Not stealing doesn't cause evil things to happen.
Not committing adultery/fornication doesn't cause
unwanted pregnancies or divorces.
To love thy neighbor as thyself does not cause wars or
violence against each other.
Pain and suffering is not the result of following God's
laws but are the results of not following His laws.
The same still holds true though. In order for us to
decide which way of life we prefer we must experience
both.
God knows this.
A few decades of pain and suffering doesn't compare to
an eternity of true happiness and joy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2023 5:11 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1057 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2023 4:10 AM candle2 has replied
 Message 1058 by vimesey, posted 01-23-2023 6:44 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 1062 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 10:43 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1057 of 1147 (905311)
01-23-2023 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1056 by candle2
01-22-2023 6:35 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
candle writes:
Tangle, evil would be to create humans as mindless
robots that have no emotions or self determination.
I'll ask you the same question I asked Phat who has so far been unable to answer me.
If god is able to create a place where evil and suffering doesn't exist and freewill doesn't seem to be a stumbling block ie heaven, why has he made evil and suffering here?
Please don't reply with dogma, I won't read it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 6:35 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1059 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 10:00 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 1075 by candle2, posted 01-23-2023 12:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1382
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1058 of 1147 (905312)
01-23-2023 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1056 by candle2
01-22-2023 6:35 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Pain and suffering is not the result of following God's
laws but are the results of not following His laws.
Explain that to a baby in Africa, who loses their sight as a result of Onchocerciasis .
In what way did that baby fail to follow your god's supposed laws, so as to result in a lifetime of lost sight and pain ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 6:35 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1060 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 10:05 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1059 of 1147 (905314)
01-23-2023 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1057 by Tangle
01-23-2023 4:10 AM


The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
Tangle, addressing Candle writes:
If god is able to create a place where evil and suffering doesn't exist and freewill doesn't seem to be a stumbling block ie heaven, why has he made evil and suffering here?

Please don't reply with dogma, I won't read it.
What other way can one reply when God can be discussed no other way with you? Its easy to play the role of a rational human grappling with finding logic and reason in their faith. Ive found peace in my search. You have not. It is likely why I am a believer and you left the faith. The only difference is that you, ringo, and Theodoric lay the blame on God (or more precisely His followers.) I don't.
To be fair, I don't blame socialists, humanists, or unbelievers either. In fact, I'd have to really think about where the blame lies.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2023 4:10 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1063 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 10:46 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1065 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2023 10:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1060 of 1147 (905315)
01-23-2023 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1058 by vimesey
01-23-2023 6:44 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
cangle writes:
Pain and suffering is not the result of following God's
laws but are the results of not following His laws.
vimesey writes:
Explain that to a baby in Africa, who loses their sight as a result of Onchocerciasis .

In what way did that baby fail to follow your god's supposed laws, so as to result in a lifetime of lost sight and pain ?
You have a valid point. Upon examining it, I would ask myself (and humanity in general) if we should take the blame for this babys agony.
You can blame God, and you can extrapolate that blame to Gods unobedient followers, but if so, I would add all of the unbelievers in that guilt paradigm as well. The fact is that one member of the human race is suffering. The question is whether or not the human race is responsible. The dilemma is what to do about it. Where are we falling short?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1058 by vimesey, posted 01-23-2023 6:44 AM vimesey has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1061 of 1147 (905319)
01-23-2023 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1053 by candle2
01-22-2023 5:02 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2 writes:
And, as I said before, the number of people who
believe a certain way has nothing to do with
whether something is true or not.
And that applies to you too. Holy Spirit or no Holy Spirit, nothing you believe and nothing you have said has anything to do with whether or not Adam and Eve were real.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 5:02 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1062 of 1147 (905320)
01-23-2023 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1056 by candle2
01-22-2023 6:35 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
candle2 writes:
Tangle, evil would be to create humans as mindless
robots that have no emotions or self determination.
Your definition of evil is wrong.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 6:35 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1063 of 1147 (905321)
01-23-2023 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1059 by Phat
01-23-2023 10:00 AM


Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
Phat writes:
The only difference is that you, ringo, and Theodoric lay the blame on God (or more precisely His followers.)
Nonsense. Don't attribute characteristics to me that I have told you many times are false. Maybe God "would" be blamed IF he was real - but he isn't.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1059 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 10:00 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1064 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 10:57 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1064 of 1147 (905323)
01-23-2023 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1063 by ringo
01-23-2023 10:46 AM


Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
Why do you keep stating this "lack of evidence" argument as if it thus becomes a fact? You once argued that we havent looked everywhere yet. Perhaps you should reexamine your inner space rather than proclaiming your conclusions as the reality in everyone elses outer space.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1068 by ringo, posted 01-23-2023 11:11 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 1065 of 1147 (905324)
01-23-2023 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1059 by Phat
01-23-2023 10:00 AM


Re: The Problem of Evil overshadows all belief
Phat writes:
What other way can one reply
With reason - rational thinking
Its easy to play the role of a rational human grappling with finding logic and reason in their faith.
Rather, it's easy to show how silly this Christian fantasy is.
Ive found peace in my search.
If you say so, but it doesn't look that way to me.
You have not.
Really? How do you work that out?
It is likely why I am a believer and you left the faith. The only difference is that you, ringo, and Theodoric lay the blame on God (or more precisely His followers.) I don't.
ffs Phat how many times? If we don't believe in a god, how can we blame him for anything?
To be fair, I don't blame socialists, humanists, or unbelievers either. In fact, I'd have to really think about where the blame lies.
Blame for what? The human condition? Life the universe and everything?
You still haven't answered my question I notice.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1059 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 10:00 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1066 by Phat, posted 01-23-2023 11:03 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 1067 by Theodoric, posted 01-23-2023 11:04 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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