Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."

Kleinman:

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We are waiting for you to explain to us how new alleles are created in sexual replicators.

Taq:

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New alleles are created by mutation. Where asexual and sexual populations differ is how those beneficial mutations interact within the population.

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That's a simpleton's explanation. When do those mutations occur, and how do the probabilities of adaptation change with the population sizes of the variants? And why do HIV, weeds, and insects behave the same way as asexual replicators when subject to multiple simultaneous selection pressures? Why do shuffling alleles make no difference in adaptation in these cases? This is a case of a constant environment with a single selection pressure. Do you think it is representative of examples of evolution in real environments with changing environments and multiple selection conditions? And if so, why? You are making a mistake in generalizing the behavior of the Desai experiment to all cases of recombination. And explain to us how descent with modification creates new alleles for sexually replicating populations, not just that mutations occur. Tell us how probabilities change with the population sizes of different variants.

Kleinman:

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Just because the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible,

Taq:

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Your math is wrong because it does not incorporate sexual reproduction.

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You are not paying attention Taq, I considered the probabilities of recombination. You can read it here:
Random recombination and evolution of drug resistance
It shows that the probabilities of recombination depend on the frequencies of the different variants in the population. Unless the adaptive alleles can increase in frequencies (as in the Desai experiment), the adaptive recombination event does not occur such as with HIV, weeds, and insects subject to multiple simultaneous selection pressures. This is the mathematical fact that you refuse to accept. You do not understand the limitations of the Desai experiment.

Kleinman:

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Just because the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible ...

AZPaul3:

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Now everyone knows without a doubt that this statement is bogus and has been shown upthread, many times and many ways, to be your religiously motivated lie. Common descent is a known fact and it's utility in all evolutionary processes is requisite.

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Are you taking some time out of your Spam research? Why don't you tell us how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail?

Phat:

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Just a brief note here.
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Kleinman rarely talks about religion in his math or dogma. I believe that he mentioned he was a Messianic Jew, but that's all that I have heard from him. Methinks you are showing your antitheist tendencies. And I seriously doubt that Jesus taught him math.

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I've had many good math teachers. One of them (who I consider my friend) was a 13-year-old Panzerfaust operator in the German army at the end of WW2 and later studied engineering in Germany before coming to the United States. He was also my thermodynamics instructor. You never know, Jesus works in some mysterious ways.

Kleinman:

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It's not my homework, they are your imaginary links.

ringo:

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Now you're just being dishonest. You can't get along in today's world without using Google and now you expect us to believe that you think Google returns fake links?

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They are your imaginary links and you won't post them because they don't exist.
Message 2423

Kleinman:

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We are waiting for you to explain to us how new alleles are created in sexual replicators.

ringo:

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And WE are waiting for YOU to explain how sexual replicators figure into asexual reproduction.

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Descent with modification works the same way for both replicators. That's why combination selection pressures work for HIV, weeds, and insects. All you need is a population of 1e15 for HIV to evolve to 3 drug therapy. That math is a bit hard for a saddle tramp.
Message 2426

Kleinman:

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the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible,

ringo:

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The DNA evidence (both empirical AND experimental, at the same time, no less) shows that UCD not only IS possible but also IS.

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ringo should know. The lack of transitional fossils and his failure to explain how drug resistance evolve and why cancer treatments fail is all the lack of evidence the ringo needs to be wrongo. Why don't you post one of your imaginary links?
Message 2426

Kleinman:

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One of them (who I consider my friend) was a 13-year-old Panzerfaust operator in the German army at the end of WW2....

ringo:

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Ooh! Ooh! One of my cousins was married to a guy whose father was a General in the German army during WW2; he was a division commander, a recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, who was fired for refusing to put the Hitler Youth in the front line.
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Kishony, Lenski, Desai. Amen.

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You obviously didn't learn anything from him.

Kleinman:

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Kleinman rarely talks about religion in his math or dogma.

nwr:

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His creationist spiel is driven by his religion.

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The great mathematician nwr decides to join in. nwr will now explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for two or more simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Sorry, I forgot, nwr doesn't have either the intelligence or the skill to do the mathematics of biological processes. That would make nwr an ideal candidate for an instructor for a biologists survey of mathematics course.

Kleinman:

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That's a simpleton's explanation. When do those mutations occur, and how do the probabilities of adaptation change with the population sizes of the variants?

Taq:

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It's how those beneficial mutations move towards fixation that differs between sexual and asexual populations. That's the part you keep getting wrong.

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Now you are being stupid. Fixation is a consequence of biological competition, not descent with modification. You confuse biological competition with descent with modification, but that shouldn't be surprising, so do most biologists.

Kleinman:

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This is a case of a constant environment with a single selection pressure.

Taq:

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Just like the Lenski experiment which you claim is a valid experiment for demonstrating descent with modification.
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Also, you keep skipping the fact that the sexual and asexual populations were in the same exact environments. However, there was no clonal interference in the sexual populations, contrary to your papers on the math of evolution.

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You really are an idiot. The probability of an adaptive mutation occurring doesn't depend on a constant or changing environment. It only depends on the number of replications done by the different variants in the population. Recombination on the other hand is strongly affected by whether the selection conditions are constant or variable because it affects which alleles are amplified. Until you recognize that Desai subjected his populations to constant selection for 90 generations before allowing them to sexually replicate, you will not understand how biological evolution works. If you think that all biological evolution works this way, you really are an idiot.

Kleinman:

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You are making a mistake in generalizing the behavior of the Desai experiment to all cases of recombination.

Taq:

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So says the person who generalizes to all of evolution based on two experiments using asexual populations.

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Then, why don't you explain how descent with modification works for sexual replicators? You are so confused, you think that biological competition and recombination are the same processes as descent with modification. That explains why you have failed to explain biological evolution, even for asexual replicators.

Kleinman:

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And explain to us how descent with modification creates new alleles for sexually replicating populations, not just that mutations occur.

Taq:

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I already did that. Here it is again.

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You are a liar. You haven't explained descent with modification. All you have done is blah, blah, blah, about biological competition and recombination. No Taq, you don't need to walk me through that paper. It is a single selection pressure, constant environment, evolutionary process that you so ignorantly want to apply to all biological evolution. You are wrong, and that is why combination selection pressures work for HIV, weeds, and insects. It appears that in your 26 years of research that you never learned what combination selection pressures do to a population in a varying environment. Why don't you explain why recombination doesn't help these populations evolve since you won't explain how descent with modification works for a sexually replicating population?

Kleinman:

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You are not paying attention Taq, I considered the probabilities of recombination.

Taq:

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Then why do you keep claiming that clonal interference is a problem in human evolution?

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It is because humans and every other replicator is not evolving in a constant environment. You need to learn where experiments in biological evolution diverge from evolution in real environments. For example, a constant environment of 90 generations allows some alleles to amplify. This doesn't happen when the environment is changing such as in "real world" environments. As long as you take this as fact, you will fail to understand real evolutionary processes. That's why you have failed to explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

Kleinman:

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It shows that the probabilities of recombination depend on the frequencies of the different variants in the population. Unless the adaptive alleles can increase in frequencies (as in the Desai experiment), the adaptive recombination event does not occur such as with HIV, weeds, and insects subject to multiple simultaneous selection pressures.

Taq:

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Except that it does.

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Master virologist, Taq, now claims that combination therapy doesn't work for treating HIV, weeds, and insects. That's your cue for saying "I never said that". Taq quotes a 10-year-old paper that shows that recombination causes HIV treatment to fail, therefore, combination therapy for the treatment of HIV does not work. You are brilliant, you should get your claim published.

Kleinman:

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You never know, Jesus works in some mysterious ways.

Theodoric:

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So not Jewish.

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Does being an atheist make you a master of all religions? It certainly doesn't make you a master of biological evolution. In fact, it makes you pretty stupid, you can't even explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Here's how it works. For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for two or more simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Theodoric has trouble doing the mathematics of biological evolution but he is a master of all religions.

Kleinman:

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Why don't you tell us how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail?

AZPaul3:

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I'll leave that to the experts, of which you are not one.

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Yeah, right. Biologists have had more than 60 years to figure out how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Of course, for a dimwit like you, that makes them experts. They don't understand the laws of thermodynamics and they can't explain a simple biological evolutionary problem. You are an ignoramus that looks to other ignoramuses to explain a simple thermodynamics problem. You are just mad because your bubble has burst and you need another reason to justify your belief in atheism.

Kleinman:

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You are just mad because your bubble has burst and you need another reason to justify your belief in atheism.

AZPaul3:

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Belief in atheism. Wow. You really don't comprehend the issues at all.
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Atheism is, literally, no belief.

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I believe you AZPaul3, you don't believe in anything, except everything you believe in. For example, you believe that reptiles evolve into birds, and fish evolve into mammals. And you know that is a fact because someone told you they had a transitional fossil. Of course, that someone can't tell you how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. You started out as a naive school child and you have grown into a naive adult.

AZPaul3:

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The guy is a lying anti-science religionist. And a charlatan at that trying to click-bait his errant papers into view. There is no reason we should not stomp on his head then tar and feather his creationist ass.

Tanypteryx:

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You for got, he's also a QUACK!

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Maybe the bug chaser wants to file a complaint with the medical board against me. He would be a good monkey in the next edition of the Scopes monkey trail.AZPaul3 talks a good story, the coward that he is. He needs to learn how to live with a burst bubble.

Kleinman:

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It is because humans and every other replicator is not evolving in a constant environment.

Taq:

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If that is what you think then you know nothing about biology. It isn't a changing environment that causes clonal interference.

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Taq stumbles into the truth for once. It isn't a changing environment that causes clonal interference, it is a constant environment. A changing environment causes the relative fitnesses to change, which interferes with fixation. And you have already admitted that I know how descent with modification works for asexual replicators. When you finally admit that descent with modification works the same way for sexual replicators then you will know something about biological evolution.

Kleinman:

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Taq quotes a 10-year-old paper that shows that recombination causes HIV treatment to fail, therefore, combination therapy for the treatment of HIV does not work.

Taq:

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I never said that.
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You claimed that multi-drug resistance does not evolve in HIV, and that it definitely doesn't do so by recombination. In reality, it does. Reality wins. You are wrong.

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Right on cue. Then why do you post a link based on a single patient with HIV where the authors claim that recombination is happening? This is like your koala example of ERVs when a single infection may cause the extinction of the animal.

Kleinman:

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They don't understand the laws of thermodynamics and they can't explain a simple biological evolutionary problem.

Taq:

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So says the person who can't measure the entropy of a DNA sequence, and a person who thinks changing environments cause clonal interference in sexual organisms.

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Why don't you show us? Give us the entropy of a DNA sequence. You won't because you don't know how. You don't even know that entropy is not conservative, it is always increasing as a population diverges. And a changing environment doesn't cause clonal interference, it changes the relative fitnesses of the different variants so that in one environment, a variant may be most fit, but in a different environment, its fitness decreases. For example, a drug-resistant variant may be most fit is an environment with the drug but in a drug-free environment, it may be less fit than the drug-sensitive variants. That's why the drug-resistant variants were selected out of Lenski's populations. How did you get so confused on this subject? What were you doing in your 26 years of research to foul up so much?

Kleinman:

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you believe that reptiles evolve into birds

AZPaul3:

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No. We KNOW that reptiles and birds share a common ancestor millions of years ago.

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Yeah, right, you were a naive child and you grew up to be a naive adult. You are also a dummy.