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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 72 of 2383 (898089)
09-18-2022 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 4:21 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution
I'm curious about why you keep bringing up Darwin. That's like bringing up the Wright Brothers in a discussion about twenty-first-century aviation.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:21 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 73 of 2383 (898090)
09-18-2022 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Kleinman
09-17-2022 7:56 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
It is strange that you would think that physics, math, and experimental evidence are bullshit.
It's the garbage-in, garbage-out principle. Whatever you put into the front end of the bull, the same thing is going to come out the back end.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 7:56 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Kleinman, posted 09-18-2022 5:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 82 of 2383 (898122)
09-19-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Kleinman
09-18-2022 5:07 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
What principles of aeronautical engineering did the Wright Brothers get wrong?
They didn't know anything about supersonic flight, for example.
Kleinman writes:
Do you think Darwin got biological evolutionary competition and descent with modification wrong?
He didn't know anything about genetics, for example.
The point is, why are you stuck in the past? Why not just call it "evolution": instead of "Darwinism"?
Kleinman writes:
At least you have some idea of what a conservation principle is.
I didn't say anything about conservation principles. I was suggesting a reason for the bullshit coming out of you: bullshit in (from creationist sources), bullshit out.
Kleinman writes:
Now, only if you could figure out how to apply it to Darwinian Evolution.
Again, why not just "Evolution"?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Kleinman, posted 09-18-2022 5:07 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 2:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 95 of 2383 (898167)
09-19-2022 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Kleinman
09-19-2022 2:43 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
So try applying that principle to biological evolutionary competition and see what you get.
Living things are open systems (plenty of energy coming in), so conservation isn't really relevant.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 2:43 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by dwise1, posted 09-20-2022 2:39 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 101 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:10 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 105 of 2383 (898184)
09-20-2022 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 9:10 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
The energy has to be useful to the replicator...
It is.
Kleinman writes:
... otherwise the Sahara Desert and the inside of a volcano would be overwhelmed with living things.
They are.
Kleinman writes:
What are the energy sources available to the bacteria?
Glucose.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:10 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 112 of 2383 (898191)
09-20-2022 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 12:05 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
I'll give you partial credit for that one. Citrate is also available, and some may argue there is thermal energy available.
I just did a quick Google and it only mentioned glucose. That's all I needed to suggest that the question is silly.
Kleinman writes:
Do you believe it takes energy to replicate?
Evolution happens at the population level. You seem to be thinking on the wrong scale.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:05 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 117 of 2383 (898196)
09-20-2022 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 12:39 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Even Taq realizes that E Coli won't replicate in distilled water or even saline solution. They need energy in a form that they can metabolize.
Duh.
But what has replication at the cellular level got to do with evolution?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:39 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 120 of 2383 (898199)
09-20-2022 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 1:13 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
The occurrence of a reasonable probability of an adaptive mutation occurring somewhere in a population takes lots of replicatiions.
*shrug*
But evolution does happen. So the rate of mutation doesn't seem to be significant.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:13 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 123 of 2383 (898202)
09-20-2022 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 1:30 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
You are right, evolution does happen and the mutation rate is not the significant variable in the process.
So it's hard to figure out what you're trying to accomplish here.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:30 PM Kleinman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-20-2022 11:32 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 157 of 2383 (898256)
09-21-2022 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Kleinman
09-21-2022 8:07 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
I like teaching biologists the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.
But you're not doing that. You're just challenging us to explain it.
Kleinman writes:
... fossil tea-leaf reading courses.
Y'see, that's where you lose all of your credibility, with silly creationist slogans like that.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 8:07 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 3:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 159 of 2383 (898260)
09-21-2022 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Kleinman
09-21-2022 3:26 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
OK, why does combination therapy work for treating HIV when the virus can very rapidly evolve resistance to single-drug therapy?
There you go again, asking when you should be telling.
Kleinman writes:
If you have trouble with that challenge....
I have trouble with a teacher who demands that I teach HIM. If you wanna teach, teach.
Kleinman writes:
Oh boy, ringo is going to explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments by reading fossil tea-leaves.
So all you have is repetition of the same childish slogans.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 3:26 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 4:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 161 of 2383 (898267)
09-21-2022 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Kleinman
09-21-2022 4:13 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
OK, I'll tell you, but you have to promise that what happens on EVC Forum stays on EVC Forum.
No deal. My motto is, If you have a secret, keep it. Don't expect me to keep your secrets for you.
If you wanna teach, teach.
Kleinman writes:
OK, the first thing I want to teach you is life is demanding.
Mick Jagger taught me that you can't always get what you want.
Kleinman writes:
Haven't you heard about teaching by repetition?
But you're not repeating a teaching. You're not teaching anything. You're just shouting slogans like, "Lock her up!"
Kleinman writes:
And I'll explain to you why fossil tea-leaf reading is a pseudoscience like phrenology, astrology, or perpetual motion machines.
That ship has sailed. We have understood the fossil record for centuries. It was geologist Lyell's book that prompted Darwin to ask the questions that he answered on The Origin of Species.
Don't waste our time trying to feed us a load of creationist crap.
Kleinman writes:
Therefore, for a reptile population to evolve into a bird population would create vast numbers of transitional forms.
It did.
Kleinman writes:
To get an idea of how vast that population would have to be, if it only required 200,000 mutations for such a genetic transformation, it would require about 200,000 billion replications. You should have transitional forms coming out of your ears.
You're ignoring the most important variable in your calculation: the rate of fossilization. It's pretty low.
And by the way, we only really need one transitional fossil to show that there was a transition.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 4:13 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 5:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 167 of 2383 (898289)
09-21-2022 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Kleinman
09-21-2022 5:12 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Do you want to learn introductory probability theory?
Not from a guy who calculates that, "There aren't enough transitional fossils," and then forgets to consider the rate of fossilization. That's creationist thinking at its best (pretty bad).

Edited by ringo, .


"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 5:12 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 10:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 170 of 2383 (898299)
09-21-2022 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Kleinman
09-21-2022 10:30 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Did I write what you put in quotes?
So, you think there ARE enough transitional fossils?
Kleinman writes:
What I said was you should have vast numbers of transitional fossils....
And I replied that we do. You're saying that we "should" have a lot suggests that you think we don't have enough.
But you don't seem to be considering the fact that fossilization is very rare.
Kleinman writes:
first you want me to teach you and now you don't
You said you wanted to teach and I pointed out that you don't seem to be trying very hard to teach. I didn't say I wanted you to teach. I have never thought you had any ability to teach.
Kleinman writes:
Sorry to burst your bubble but you are not related to chimpanzees.
I'm sure the chimpanzees don't brag about being related to you either. But you don't get to pick your relatives.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 10:30 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by dwise1, posted 09-21-2022 11:59 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 172 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 8:19 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20461
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 179 of 2383 (898318)
09-22-2022 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Kleinman
09-22-2022 8:19 AM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Only those that don't understand that it takes huge populations for each transitional adaptation mutation will argue that there ARE enough transitional fossils.
That's a very basic error in logic. As I said, you only need one transitional to indicate transitionals. How many pigs do you need as evidence that pigs exist?
Kleinman writes:
Every lineage on a different evolutionary trajectory requires a billion replications for each transitional adaptational step.
Well, of course we don't have fossils for every step. But I'm trying to get it through your head that one transitional is evidence of transitionals. Archaeopteryx is all we need to show a link between dinosaurs and birds.
Kleinman writes:
How many T Rex existed? How many T Rex fossils exist today?
According to Nature:
quote:
Calculating that T. rex survived for about 127,000 generations before becoming extinct, the researchers came up with a figure of 2.5 billion individuals over the species’ entire existence. Only 32 adult T. rex have been discovered as fossils, so the fossil record accounts for just one in about every 80 million T. rex. This means that the chances of being fossilized — even for one of the largest-ever carnivores — were vanishingly small.
So we don't expect to find many transitionals. The point is that we do find some.
Kleinman writes:
Then tell us how many transitional fossils you have that demonstrate reptiles evolving into birds or fish evolving into mammals.
Strictly speaking, every fossil is a transitional - but I suppose you mean fossils that clearly demonstrate a link, like archaeopteryx.
Kleinman writes:
... fish evolving into mammals.
Fish didn't evolve into mammals. We do have a common ancestor with fish. Some of them evolved into fish and some of them evolved into us. (This is why people keep telling you you know nothing about evolution.)
Kleinman writes:
If you and others like PaulK want to argue that a series of microevolutionary changes add up to a macroevolutionary change...
It's impossible to argue otherwise. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. You're trying to argue that a million steps can't take you a thousand miles because a milion is a big number. The number is irrelevant. Keep adding and you'll get to it.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 8:19 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
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