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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 7 of 2383 (894406)
05-15-2022 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tanypteryx
05-15-2022 11:14 AM


Hey FossilDiscovery, so when does the discussion start?
I have been assuming that he is a hit and run poster.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-15-2022 11:14 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 96 of 2383 (898168)
09-19-2022 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Kleinman
09-19-2022 9:30 PM


Apples and oranges
How many beneficial mutations do humans have compared to chimpanzees to account for their population difference?
This is like asking how many oranges there are in a basket of apples.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Kleinman, posted 09-19-2022 9:30 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:12 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 104 of 2383 (898183)
09-20-2022 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 9:12 AM


Re: Apples and oranges
Are you implying that there are no beneficial mutations in all the genetic differences between humans and chimps?
No. Rather, I am saying that the comparison is meaningless. What is beneficial for a human might not be beneficial for a chimp. What is beneficial is a relative evaluation, depending on the way of life of the species where the mutation shows up. Chimps and humans have different ways of living. And, by the way, those differences evolved.
If so, why are there over 7 billion humans and only about 300,000 chimps on earth?
That's not relevant to anything. You are making false assumptions about evolution. Yes, humans make for better humans than would chimps. But chimps make for better chimps than would humans. You cannot directly compare them like that.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 9:12 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:01 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 118 of 2383 (898197)
09-20-2022 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 12:01 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
So you are claiming that there are beneficial mutational differences between humans and chimps.
Your mistake is to treat "beneficial" as an absolute. It isn't. What is beneficial is relative to the population.
Why do humans have the reproductive fitness able to achieve a population of greater than 7 billion while chimpanzees have only achieved a population of 300,000?
Likewise, you are treating "fitness" as an absolute. It isn't. Again, it is relative to the population.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 12:01 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:25 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 128 of 2383 (898207)
09-20-2022 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Kleinman
09-20-2022 1:25 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
I think you mean to say that mutations are only beneficial in the context of environmental selection conditions.
I prefer that you don't try to tell me what I meant. You cannot read minds.
It isn't just the environment as an absolute. What matters in the environment depends on what you use and what you do. That's why I described it in terms of ways of living.
Do you think that chimps and humans have the same reproductive fitness in the environment where chimps live?
I don't think there are many humans who want to live in the trees with the chimps. And I don't see chimps training to be plumbers. You cannot make the comparison that you are suggesting.
There are about 1.5 billion people living in Africa. Why only 300,000 chimps?
And the number of ants greatly exceeds the number of humans. You are making inappropriate comparisons.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Kleinman, posted 09-20-2022 1:25 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 148 of 2383 (898233)
09-21-2022 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Kleinman
09-21-2022 8:07 AM


Re: Video not available
One of your administrators sent me an email with a list of topics and this was one of them.
I think that was just a test mailing. See Message 53.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 322 of 2383 (899041)
10-07-2022 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Kleinman
10-07-2022 9:53 AM


It appears that Taq has left the building but who can blame him?
Taq is probably tired of responding to your nonsense.
The mathematical explanation for the reason that universal common descent is not possible is the multiplication rule of probabilities.
When your mathematical model does not match reality, you are supposed to abandon that broken model. Instead, you are abandoning reality and sticking with your failed model.
Evolution doesn't work the way that you think it does. Your arguments should have shown you that. But you trust your own beliefs rather than the actual evidence.
This is the failure of your creationism.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2022 9:53 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2022 1:17 PM nwr has replied
 Message 328 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 2:09 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 324 of 2383 (899045)
10-07-2022 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Kleinman
10-07-2022 1:17 PM


Taq has already admitted that my mathematical model is correct for DNA adaptive evolution with asexual replicators.
I'm doubting that. You have interpreted Taq as making such an admission, but I don't think he agree. He has spent a lot of effort trying to explain your mistakes to you, but you repeatedly ignore his explanations.
It is because I know how to formulate the mathematics of random recombination and Taq knows that I'm correct.
More accurately, Taq knows that you are wrong, but has given up on trying to explain this to you.
Just by the way, I am a mathematician, so I do know something about mathematics and physics. I haven't looked closely at your mathematical claims, but it is quite possible that you have correctly modeled your absurdly false understanding of evolution.
Maybe you should try looking at the actual empirical evidence.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2022 1:17 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2022 3:41 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 326 of 2383 (899047)
10-07-2022 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Kleinman
10-07-2022 3:41 PM


Taq never tells us what is so stringent about the selection conditions in the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
If you don't already understand that, then you should not be pontificating.
Of course, a layman like you with no scientific training wouldn't recognize this blunder.
Oh, I recognize the blunder. But you keep on making it, even though this has been repeatedly explained to you.
Taq thinks that multiple alleles can fix simultaneously in a population. Taq knows he is wrong and that's why he has left the discussion. Taq has left the discussion because he understands this is a blunder.
I'll put you down as being as incompetent at reading Taq's mind as you are at understanding evolution.
Let's see your mathematical model of the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
I'm not a biologist. I'll leave the modeling to the real biologists.
I do know enough biology to recognize that you badly misunderstand evolution.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2022 3:41 PM Kleinman has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 335 of 2383 (899240)
10-10-2022 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Kleinman
10-10-2022 10:19 PM


Re: Tanypteryx explains the physics and mathematics of biological evolution
Does that mean you aren't going to explain the physics and mathematics of the biological evolution of the organisms that you study?
Whenever you say things like this, you display your own ignorance. Evolution doesn't use mathematics.
Yes, it is possible to build a mathematical model. But in that case, you are talking about the mathematics of your model rather than about the mathematics of evolution.
And, by the way, your model is broken.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 10:19 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 11:19 PM nwr has replied
 Message 337 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 11:28 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 339 of 2383 (899244)
10-10-2022 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Kleinman
10-10-2022 11:19 PM


Re: Tanypteryx explains the physics and mathematics of biological evolution
Let's see if we get this right. Your science of evolution doesn't use mathematics, it doesn't use physical laws, and it doesn't use experimentation.
No, you have not got that right. May I suggest that you stop trying to tell me what I believe. You make terrible guesses.
Do you have a better explanation for why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
Those were very limited experiments. You are reading far too much into them.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 11:19 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 340 of 2383 (899245)
10-10-2022 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Tanypteryx
10-10-2022 11:28 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Plus, I'm still wondering why he thinks it's important to mention the laws of thermodynamics so often when he talks about his mutations and selection?
That's probably because he is a creationist, and creationists have weird ideas about thermodynamics.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 11:28 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 11:42 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 343 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 12:11 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 346 of 2383 (899251)
10-11-2022 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Kleinman
10-11-2022 12:16 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
It's not so weird if you want to understand how antimicrobial drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
That's an example of what is weird.
Life itself is a thermodynamic process. However, in terms of thermodynamics, what's involved in evolution is an insignificant part of that. But it is the part that creationists emphasize.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 12:16 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 349 of 2383 (899271)
10-11-2022 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Kleinman
10-11-2022 8:47 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Thanks for your explanation.
When you talk about "the mathematics of evolution", you are apparently talking about "population genetics". That's well established research area with a substantial literature. If you use the established terminology, people will better understand what you are talking about.
By the way, your own version of population genetics is horribly naive and simplistic.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 8:47 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 12:40 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6181
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 357 of 2383 (899287)
10-11-2022 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Kleinman
10-11-2022 12:40 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
How would you know, you don't do the math of biology.
The expression "math of biology" is a misnomer. I know enough about population genetics to recognize how simplistic is your version.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 12:40 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 2:32 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
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