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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 885 of 2932 (900388)
10-27-2022 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 884 by Dredge
10-27-2022 9:38 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
So we all can agree that NONE of us knows everything. But let's discuss not only the science but the research scientists. Do you have a preference?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 884 by Dredge, posted 10-27-2022 9:38 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 886 of 2932 (900389)
10-27-2022 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 883 by Dredge
10-27-2022 9:26 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
All I know is, according to the mathematics of God,
the probability of natural abiogenesis occurring is less than zero.
I was unaware that God had His own mathematics. I DO know that this whole idea of chance and a "cosmic lottery" is not disciplined thinking. Chance cannot nor ever will be able to "create" anything. Chance is an improper concept. Things either happen or they don't. It is impossible to calculate probability (a definite numerical value) in regard to macro events such as creation/evolution.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by Dredge, posted 10-27-2022 9:26 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 10:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 913 by ringo, posted 10-27-2022 11:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 893 of 2932 (900399)
10-27-2022 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 892 by Dredge
10-27-2022 9:58 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
When humans dream they imagine. When God dreams, He creates.
I would caution you against referring to dwise1 as stupid, however. I respect his intelligence and his experience.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by Dredge, posted 10-27-2022 9:58 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 941 by Dredge, posted 10-27-2022 2:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2191 of 2932 (902709)
11-27-2022 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2185 by Kleinman
11-26-2022 6:44 PM


Re: Usable energy
I tried to find your paper and ended up reading a rebuttal direceted at you over at Panda's Thumb. Why did they ban you?
Joe Felsenstein:

Evaluating Alan Kleinman's arguments
By Joe Felsenstein
September 6, 2021 18:00 MST
Alan Kleinman has been commenting on various threads here at PT, in ways that repeatedly argue that he has done the first correct probabilistic analysis of “DNA evolutionary adaptation” and “competition”, and that call for evolutionary biologists to provide an analysis of the Lenski and Kishony experiments in bacterial evolution. He also argues that we have not provided a correct analysis of bacterial antibiotic resistence or of the evolution of drug resistance in cancer. This thread is intended to allow discussion of these assertions, without disrupting discussions of other topics at PT.
Let me explain.
Kleinman has published 7 papers on modeling evolutionary processes. I have provided links to PDFs of these, when I encountered ones that might be free:
Kleinman, A. 2014. The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection Statistics in Medicine 33 (29): 5074–5080 (PDF)
Kleinman, A. 2015. Random recombination and evolution of drug resistance. Statistics in Medicine 34 (11): 1977–1980.
Kleinman, A. 2016. The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance. Statistics in Medicine 35 (29): 5391-5400
Kleinman, A. 2018a. Random mutation and natural selection in competitive and noncompetitive environments. Biomedical Journal of Scientific & Technical Research 9 (1): 6903–6906. (PDF)
Kleinman, A. 2018b. Malaria and other infectious diseases, Suppression of the evolution of drug resistance. Biomedical Journal of Scientific & Technical Research 12 (2): 9083-9085. (PDF)
Kleinman, A. 2019. Fixation and adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment. Biomedical Journal of Scientific & Technical Research 20 (1): 14754–14760. (PDF)
Kleinman, A. M. 2020. Drug resistance, An enemy of targeted cancer therapies. Annals of Clinical and Medical Case Reports 4 (9): 1–4.
He has also brought his argument up repeatedly at Peaceful Science and at Panda"s Thumb, usually in the middle of threads devoted to other issues.
The basic calculation he does is to consider a haploid clonally-reproducing organism such a bacterial culture, one which has no recombination. He develops a formula for the probability that the clone has beneficial mutations occuring at n sites, where the first such mutation has nGA generations to occur, the second has nGB generations to occur, and so on. Note that an important feature of his model is that he considers, not the time in generations but the number of cells that have ever arisen in the clone. So with a probability mu PA for each new cell that it has a beneficial mutation, it takes about 1/(mu PA) cells before there is a reasonable probability of seeing the beneficial mutation once.
A mystery (to me, anyway) is where selection is in all this. We are computing probabilities that, when a given number of cells has arisen, we have had beneficial mutation at all of the n sites. Once one has occurred, there seems to be no futher mutation at that site. Why? This calculation is supposed to show us the fundamental mathematical theory of mutation and selection, but aside from waiting until a mutation labelled “beneficial” occurs, there is no further effect of selection.
The same theory is also used in most of his other papers (an exception being the paper on recombination which I will get back to later). He has an idiosyncratic terminology. As far as I can tell it involves calling the occurrence of beneficial mutations by mutation “DNA adaptive evolution” while he calls their subsequent changes of gene frequency in the population “competition”.
Some questions arise:
Kleinman sees two processes at work: “competition” which is survival of the fittest, and “DNA evolutionary adaptation” which is changes of genotypes by mutation, either deleterious or beneficial. Is this terminology helpful?
His equations are all about how many organisms (or cells) need to have arisen to get a given probability that a beneficial allele will arise by mutation. The theory uses the stochastic process of mutation. How does natural selection affect this?
His treatment of recombination between genotypes with two or more loci assumes that offspring of a cross between a haploid Ab genotype and a haploid aB genotype will all be AB. Is that true?
He seems to think that he is the first to give a correct mathematical theory of mutation and natural selection. Was he? For example, his first paper has the rather astonishingly grand title “The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection”. Would RA Fisher (1922) or JBS Haldane (1924) have agreed? I think he is off by 97-99 years.
Is he really the first to apply the mathematics of population genetics theory to evolution or drug resistance in cancer, or to success of multidrug therapies for diseases?
Anyway, I must be misunderstanding how his theory works, and I hope that this thread will explain his theory to me. After all, if it is the fundamental mathematical theory of my own field, then it is surely important to know. By doing the discussion here, we can avoid being so rudely interrupted by the folks in the previous threads who were trying to discuss arguments other than Kleinman"s.
[Note added 9 October 2021] After 2,111 comments in this thread, many by AK, I am placing him on pre-moderation and limiting him to 1 comment per day. I will accumulate his future comments and release them at a rate of 1 per day. People who consider this unreasonable suppression of discussion are invited to read his past comments and consider his responses to counterarguments.
[Note added 10 October 2021] Owing in part to remarks addressed to me today in comments at the thread Return of the God of the Gaps, Alan Kleinman has been banned from PT.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2185 by Kleinman, posted 11-26-2022 6:44 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2193 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 9:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2250 of 2932 (902785)
11-27-2022 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2249 by Kleinman
11-27-2022 3:08 PM


A Simple Question
Before we go any further, I want to know about your beliefs. No math is needed for this one except for perhaps 1x1x1.
Do you believe in a higher power?
Are you aware of how Christians (myself included) sometimes conflate Gods omniscience with their own ideas and need to prop themselves up by visiting many forums, publishing a few papers, and feeling like legends in their own minds simply because nobody allows themselves to be set up to be knocked down by forcing themselves to agree with your theories? I know I do it. The day the peanut gallery agrees with me is the day I would question my own sanity.
But I DO believe in God, known through Jesus Christ and alive today. My simple question is whether you believe in Him.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2249 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 3:08 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2254 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 4:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2251 of 2932 (902786)
11-27-2022 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2247 by Kleinman
11-27-2022 2:44 PM


The People v Alan Kleinman
AK, replying to dwise1 writes:
All I have to do is ask you to explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail and ask you to do the mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments. You fail and you can't hide it with smilies. You don't know how biological evolution works and your posts reveal that.
As I said in the last post, you seem to feel better (smarter? Validated as a man with God's special and unique intelligence?) Is this why you justify not being mainstream science (some claim you are not truly in the same camp as scientists) Is this because you yourself are wrong or is it because an ever-growing list of critics are all wrong for failing to do your math the way that you want them to do/understand it?
Some honesty would be appreciated in your reply.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2247 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 2:44 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2253 by dwise1, posted 11-27-2022 3:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2255 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 4:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2417 of 2932 (903291)
12-08-2022 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2416 by AZPaul3
12-07-2022 4:11 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Just a brief note here.
Kleinman rarely talks about religion in his math or dogma. I believe that he mentioned he was a Messianic Jew, but that's all that I have heard from him. Methinks you are showing your antitheist tendencies. And I seriously doubt that Jesus taught him math.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2416 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2022 4:11 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2421 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 8:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2424 by nwr, posted 12-08-2022 11:20 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 2431 by AZPaul3, posted 12-08-2022 1:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2486 of 2932 (903468)
12-10-2022 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2481 by Kleinman
12-10-2022 8:25 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Bonzo? You mean that old movie with Reagan in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2481 by Kleinman, posted 12-10-2022 8:25 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2489 by Kleinman, posted 12-11-2022 11:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2527 of 2932 (903552)
12-13-2022 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2526 by vimesey
12-13-2022 12:49 AM


vimesey, addressing Kleinman writes:
Are you capable of being wrong ?
I know I am. Im quite sure I would never make a good creationist since I dont understand the science,physics,and chemistry behind it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2526 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2022 12:49 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2529 by Kleinman, posted 12-13-2022 7:47 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 2532 by dwise1, posted 12-13-2022 9:59 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2563 of 2932 (903601)
12-14-2022 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2562 by Kleinman
12-13-2022 6:37 PM


As Long As The Circus Is In Town
I've got one that you might like, Kleinman. Personally I think the guy is full of it, but his presentation goes to great lengths to support the theory of a young earth
Real science, history, geology, population growth, archeology, and common sense prove Earth is only a few thousand years old, NOT billions of years old.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2562 by Kleinman, posted 12-13-2022 6:37 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2564 by Kleinman, posted 12-14-2022 9:09 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 2573 by dwise1, posted 12-14-2022 3:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2658 of 2932 (904416)
12-29-2022 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2657 by Kleinman
12-28-2022 6:00 PM


Re: Forewarned.
The problem is,(or seems to be) that you always insist on framing the argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2657 by Kleinman, posted 12-28-2022 6:00 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2659 by Kleinman, posted 12-29-2022 9:51 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2665 of 2932 (904503)
12-31-2022 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2661 by Kleinman
12-30-2022 12:16 PM


Re: Forewarned.
This is uncalled for. Forum Guidelines
Teasing each other is one thing. Insulting one another is off limits.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2661 by Kleinman, posted 12-30-2022 12:16 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2737 of 2932 (904773)
01-07-2023 7:05 AM


Administrative Requests
There was a time that I was an administrator at this site. I don't really miss the responsibilities too much as I am old and tire easily, knowing that Percy and Moose both do a fine job maintaing this site and are in my opinion fair.
In conclusion, I agree with the consensus of the peanut gallery that this topic too should be closed. Aside from the disrespect shown by Alan Kleinman towards the responses of fellow members in these threads, Kleinman is violating spiritual principles as well. He is simply repeating PRATTS and showing no desire to humble himself in any way. Also, the stirring from both sides in this issue is flaunting Forum Guidelines and leads me to strongly agree that this topic is dead in the water. Were I an administrator I would close it.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2766 of 2932 (905408)
01-26-2023 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 2764 by Kleinman
01-25-2023 10:48 AM


Re: Forewarned.
Kleinman writes:
You can't explain the evolution of drug resistance but neither can biologists.
This seems to suggest that *you* can and have....trumpeting your own horn as it were. I would find it a bit presumptuous to place my own scholarly acumen as being superior to most biologists.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2764 by Kleinman, posted 01-25-2023 10:48 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2767 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2023 9:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2769 by Kleinman, posted 01-26-2023 12:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2810 of 2932 (905850)
02-04-2023 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2809 by Kleinman
02-04-2023 12:17 PM


Re: Forewarned.
Does ringo think that Theodoric can explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail?
Nobody cares. You have already been shut down in your unpublished papers. You have a soapbox here, but it is little more than an echo chamber. Some day, you will be in a home for the senile, walking about and muttering to everybody
how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. And you will claim that they are the senile ones!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2809 by Kleinman, posted 02-04-2023 12:17 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2811 by Kleinman, posted 02-04-2023 12:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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