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# Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."

Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Percy
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Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
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 Message 12 of 2790 (894626) 05-24-2022 1:28 PM Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz05-24-2022 1:00 PM

The primary evidence for macroevolution is that the deeper you go in the fossil record the more different from modern forms. How big the differences between one stage and the next depends upon how detailed the fossil record for any particular line of descent at that stage of evolutionary history.
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 05-24-2022 1:00 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 (3)
 Message 23 of 2790 (898005) 09-17-2022 2:49 PM Reply to: Message 17 by Kleinman09-17-2022 12:46 PM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
What are the two physical processes that Darwin described? Then tell us what laws of thermodynamics applies to these processes.
Ooh, ooh, I know. For the first one, natural selection and descent with modification. For the second one, all of them.
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 17 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 12:46 PM Kleinman has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 25 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 3:05 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 (1)
 Message 26 of 2790 (898010) 09-17-2022 3:17 PM Reply to: Message 25 by Kleinman09-17-2022 3:05 PM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Now, we are getting somewhere. You almost got this right, Percy. Do you think that natural selection (what Darwin calls the struggle for existence or what I like to call competition between different variants in a population (and what are these variants competing for?)) and descent with modification (adaptation) are the same physical processes?
Aw, shucks, Professor Kleinman, I don't think I'm ever gonna get this evolution stuff. It's all just so complicated. So what *are* the two physical processes that Darwin described? And which of the laws of thermodynamics do they not follow?
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 25 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 3:05 PM Kleinman has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 28 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 3:31 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 (1)
 Message 34 of 2790 (898022) 09-17-2022 4:15 PM Reply to: Message 28 by Kleinman09-17-2022 3:31 PM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
You can get this Percy. Just read carefully. The two processes Darwin is describing are biological competition, that's the part that natural selection acts on (relative reproductive fitness) and the other is descent with modification.
Aw, shucks, Professor Kleinman, you're just so smart. It sounds so simple when you explain it. Darwin's two physical processes are biological competition and descent with modification. Natural selection just acts on biological competition.
Sometimes those modifications are adaptive. This process depends on mutations.
Amazing!
These processes certainly obey the laws of thermodynamics.
Well thank goodness for that! For a while there you had me believing I had physics all mixed up, too.
Now, start with the concept of biological competition. What are the different populations competing for? Once you figure this out, the math for this process becomes obvious.
There's math? Golly whiz, no one told me there was math. Are they competing for lebensraum?
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 28 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 3:31 PM Kleinman has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 37 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:29 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 (1)
 Message 53 of 2790 (898043) 09-17-2022 8:06 PM Reply to: Message 37 by Kleinman09-17-2022 4:29 PM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
What fun is physics without math? Think about what the meaning of the carrying capacity of an environment means.
Well what are you waiting for? Let's bring on the math and have some fun, Professor Kleinman.
And don't leave me hanging about what the different populations are competing for. Was my guess of lebensraum right?
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 37 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:29 PM Kleinman has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 57 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 8:42 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 54 of 2790 (898044) 09-17-2022 8:10 PM Reply to: Message 39 by Kleinman09-17-2022 4:40 PM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
I'm not trying to bullshit you. I'm trying to explain to you the physics of Darwinian evolution. Since you are so impatient, just read this:
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution
Hey, you promised math, Professor Kleinman. Where's the math?
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 39 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:40 PM Kleinman has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 58 of 2790 (898048) 09-17-2022 9:11 PM Reply to: Message 41 by Kleinman09-17-2022 4:50 PM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
AZPaul3:
Yeah, the same ego-based bs you posted the last time you were here. Rejected.
Distribution of fixed beneficial mutations and the rate of adaptation in asexual populations
Brilliant response, Professor Kleinman. Bravissimo!
There was one part I didn't get. Could you explain this equation from the analysis section:
Thanks a bunch!
--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Make equation easier to read.

 This message is a reply to: Message 41 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 4:50 PM Kleinman has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 59 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 9:47 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 (1)
 Message 61 of 2790 (898054) 09-18-2022 9:34 AM Reply to: Message 59 by Kleinman09-17-2022 9:47 PM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Percy:
Brilliant response, Professor Kleinman. Bravissimo!

There was one part I didn't get. Could you explain this equation from the analysis section:

Thanks a bunch!
Sorry, I do not know how to format the equation in dBCodes,...
Oh, Professor Kleinman, you are so funny. To someone of your intellect dBCodes and Latex equations are mere children's toys.
...but let's call it equation [3]. Their problem is that they are assuming that biological evolution obeys an exponential (or exponential-like) distribution function.
It's a brilliancy. You offered the paper Distribution of fixed beneficial mutations and the rate of adaptation in asexual populations as if supporting your views when it actually is just an example of how not to do it, then tell us the answer is in The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection. Could you please contrast this equation with the one above and explain why this is the proper equation for the probability of a beneficial mutation:
Thank you so much, Professor Kleinman. You're the best!
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 59 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 9:47 PM Kleinman has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 64 by Kleinman, posted 09-18-2022 11:21 AM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 149 of 2790 (898234) 09-21-2022 10:53 AM Reply to: Message 64 by Kleinman09-18-2022 11:21 AM

Re: Video not available
We've had an Internet outage, landscaper dug up the cable.
Kleinman writes:
You seem to be good at formatting, I'll leave that to you.
Oh, Professor Kleinman, you are too funny, talking of math while presenting no equations. I get it. You want us to create the equations ourselves.
You do seem to be having some difficulty with physics and math.
Oh, yes, Professor Kleinman, I have many problems with physics and math. In the mathemacian/physicist/engineer jokes, I was the engineer who proceeded half the distance to the beautiful woman on each strike of the clock, and I was the mathematician who let the fire burn once he knew there was a solution, and I was the physicist who thought that 9 not being a prime number could be experimental error.
For example, you seem to think that populations are competing for space.
I am so embarrassed about my wrong guess that you meant lebensraum. Are they maybe competing for poker chips?
That would be this equation:
And wants to know the difference between that equation and equation [3] from the Lenski team paper.
Distribution of fixed beneficial mutations and the rate of adaptation in asexual populations
That would be this equation:
${\mathbf{\color{cyan} p(s) = \frac{1}{\sigma} \frac{{e^{-(s/\sigma)}}^\beta}{\Gamma(1+\beta^{-1})}}}$
You implied this equation was wrong when you said, "Their problem is that they are assuming that biological evolution obeys an exponential (or exponential-like) distribution function," in Message 59. But your equation has exponentials, too. You didn't provide any equations yourself, so first tell me if I've chosen the right equations, because it is very difficult to tell which equations you mean you when just post a link to a paper and do not specify which equation. If I selected the wrong equations then please post the correct ones.
And if I selected the correct equations then why don't they appear comparable, since one is probability for a single mutation and the other is just a distribution of probabilities across multiple mutations. Except for the distribution aspect, shouldn't these equations be very similar?
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 64 by Kleinman, posted 09-18-2022 11:21 AM Kleinman has not replied

 Replies to this message: Message 153 by dwise1, posted 09-21-2022 12:45 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 173 of 2790 (898308) 09-22-2022 9:06 AM Reply to: Message 153 by dwise109-21-2022 12:45 PM

Re: Video not available
dwise1 writes:
I am so embarrassed about my wrong guess that you meant lebensraum. Are they maybe competing for poker chips?

His inability to understand Lebensraum is indicative of far greater problems.
You have to admire his ability to stick to his schtick of not saying much specific while telling people that if they had any intelligence they'd figure it out for themselves. He ignores and can't detect mockery, so I'll abandon that approach.
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 153 by dwise1, posted 09-21-2022 12:45 PM dwise1 has not replied

 Replies to this message: Message 174 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 9:36 AM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 175 of 2790 (898310) 09-22-2022 10:10 AM Reply to: Message 57 by Kleinman09-17-2022 8:42 PM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Percy:
Well what are you waiting for? Let's bring on the math and have some fun, Professor Kleinman.
OK, let's start with the math of competition. Haldane's model in his "cost of natural selection" paper is a good starting point. You can find that paper here:
JSTOR: Access Check
Where's the math? All you did was provide a link to a paper. According to the Forum Guidelines:
1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
So if you want to make your points with math then you need to present the math, not just provide a link.
Note that Haldane's model has been proven to be a conservation of energy process.
I see no such proof in your message.
You have to modify his model for the particular case.
If you believe Haldane's model should be modified for each particular case then please describe the various processes of modification and how one selects which to use according to case.
For example, Lenski's experiment includes bottlenecking so you have to modify Haldane model as shown here:
Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
Please describe how Haldane's model should be modified for the Lenski case.
There are a couple of ways to model adaptation. You can use the "at least one rule from probability theory as shown here in this paper:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
Or you can use a Markov chain random walk calculation to compute the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring as show here:
The Kishony Mega-Plate Experiment, a Markov Process
Note that either means of computing the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring gives the same result.
Percy:
And don't leave me hanging about what the different populations are competing for. Was my guess of lebensraum right?
Populations compete for the energy available in the given environment. That's because it takes energy to survive and replicate. Overcrowding may be a selection condition but in and of itself, it is food (energy) that biological populations compete over.
One might even say they're competing for resources.
BTW. is m-thematics now a forbidden word?
You're the one mentioning m-thematics for the first time, you tell me.
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 57 by Kleinman, posted 09-17-2022 8:42 PM Kleinman has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 177 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 10:56 AM Percy has replied Message 231 by Kleinman, posted 09-24-2022 11:13 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied Message 234 by Kleinman, posted 09-26-2022 8:11 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied Message 249 by Kleinman, posted 09-27-2022 9:45 AM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 182 of 2790 (898325) 09-22-2022 12:24 PM Reply to: Message 177 by Kleinman09-22-2022 10:56 AM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Fair enough, I'll walk you through all the math. Start with the link above to Haldane's Cost of Natural Selection Paper.
JSTOR: Access Check is not a link to Haldane's paper. It's a link to a site that will allow you to access Haldane's paper if you sign up. Here is a link to the actual paper: The Cost of Natural Selection
Haldane starts his analysis with the following equations (unnumbered). (Please pardon my formatting).
Is formatting difficult for you? Math seems your central focus but you can't even use subscripts and superscripts? And Latex shouldn't be rocket science for someone so enamored with math.
Here's the relevant excerpt from the paper which appears at the bottom of page 14:
The Cost of Selection:
Let the nth generation, before selection, occur in the frequencies

And this is not an equation for the cost of selection, just a statement of how he'll be expressing the frequencies. You add:
"A" and "a" are different alleles. "A" variants are more fit than the "a" variants.
It should be clear to you that Haldane's frequency equation is at least a conservation of number equation.
Yes, total frequency of both A and a will always be 1.
Why is it a conservation of energy equation?
You're claiming it, you explain it. First provide the specific equation from Haldane's paper that you're referring to, then convert it into units of Joules.
I'll go further into your post once you consider this first point.
You haven't made a point, just a request that others do your explaining for you.
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 177 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 10:56 AM Kleinman has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 184 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 2:02 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 269 of 2790 (898691) 09-28-2022 10:17 AM Reply to: Message 184 by Kleinman09-22-2022 2:02 PM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
Percy:
You're claiming it, you explain it. First provide the specific equation from Haldane's paper that you're referring to, then convert it into units of Joules.
I already have but I'll do it again.
There was no equation in what followed. Please present the Haldane equation you're talking about, then convert it to Joules. Using math equations.
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 184 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 2:02 PM Kleinman has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 275 by Kleinman, posted 09-28-2022 11:08 AM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 270 of 2790 (898696) 09-28-2022 10:29 AM Reply to: Message 174 by Kleinman09-22-2022 9:36 AM

Re: Video not available
Kleinman writes:
You will have to forgive me if I have difficulty distinguishing mockery from a serious argument when carrying on a discussion with people that think that blizzards turn lizards into buzzards with gizzards.
It might help if you ceased placing a higher priority on being obnoxious than on constructive discussion.
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 174 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 9:36 AM Kleinman has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 21344
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 272 of 2790 (898698) 09-28-2022 10:34 AM Reply to: Message 249 by Kleinman09-27-2022 9:45 AM

Re: Video not available
What the hell did you do? Fix your latex equations, man. Go to Online LaTeX Equation Editor - create, integrate, download and play to your hearts content until you get your latex equations right.
--Percy

 This message is a reply to: Message 249 by Kleinman, posted 09-27-2022 9:45 AM Kleinman has not replied

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