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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 4 of 2790 (894384)
05-14-2022 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by FossilDiscovery
05-12-2022 10:45 PM


Add to the discussion of how much we can observe microevolution versus macroevolution.

Which one is better evidence for evolution? Or are they both?
Macroevolution is not a separate process, it is just lots of microevolution.
A book has a bunch of pages and chapters, but the chapters are not separate from the pages. If there were no chapters it would still be the same book.
Do you agree or disagree with the video?
Do you really think a 2 minute video is an effective rebuttal to creationists?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by FossilDiscovery, posted 05-12-2022 10:45 PM FossilDiscovery has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 6 of 2790 (894403)
05-15-2022 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by FossilDiscovery
05-12-2022 10:45 PM


This video aims to open up discussion and to dispell myths.
Hey FossilDiscovery, so when does the discussion start?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by FossilDiscovery, posted 05-12-2022 10:45 PM FossilDiscovery has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 05-15-2022 12:27 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 8 of 2790 (894407)
05-15-2022 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
05-15-2022 12:27 PM


I have been assuming that he is a hit and run poster.
Yeah, me too.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 05-15-2022 12:27 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 14 of 2790 (894633)
05-24-2022 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
05-24-2022 1:00 PM


mtw writes:
unless I am speaking in terms of the fact that there is no reason we shouldn't see it at "inbetween" stages in extant forms like we should in the fossil record in extinct forms.
In the fossil record we do see "in between" stages.
How would you be able to tell if a feature is at an "in between" stage in a living species?
Logically it seems obvious to me, that every single feature of every living species can be considered to be transitional between all the stages that have already happened and all the stages that will occur in the future.
mtw writes:
Evolution theory's theoretics would mean that we couldn't observe something that allegedly evolved THEN, right NOW. So we couldn't observe a bat evolving because it's an alleged past event.
"Evolution theory's theoretics" is unspecific, so not much help in understanding what you're talking about.
We can observe evidence left by past events and organisms in the fossil record, but a more powerful tool is emerging with whole genome sequencing and mapping.
mtw writes:
If convergence is something that happens all the time as evolutionists argue, why aren't there inbetweens for arms, legs, organs, eyes, wings or fins presently "on their way" to becoming things that allegedly gained those things by evolution in the past?
I'm not clear what you mean by convergence, can you give an example?
Once again, it seems logically obvious that that every single feature of every living species can be considered to be transitional between all the stages that have already happened and all the stages that will occur in the future.
Are you really expecting someone to predict, for example: what future forms will evolve from each of the thousands of different types of mouthparts of insects, or front legs of insects or hind legs of insects, or the forewings of insects that already evolved in the past?
mtw writes:
So this is a conspicuous absence of macro evolution. Not only if I look in the fossil record will I find no direct evidence of bat evolution or the evolution of the insect wing I will also not find any true intermediates in the living record either
Well, yeah, but you haven't actually looked at any of the fossil record have you?
Earlier I mentioned whole genome sequencing and mapping. It turns out that there is an absolute treasure trove of fossil information in the genomes of all modern living species. We are now comparing genomes of individuals within species, genomes of related species with the genomes of more distantly related species using machine learning techniques that are fantastic for showing us patterns in large data sets like whole genomes.
Genomics taken together with the geological record and fossils, paleo-biogeography, modern taxonomy and systematics we are mapping the evolutionary history of the life on this planet.
mtw writes:
Rationally speaking that gives me all the facts I need to not entertain macro evolution because of the axiom, "the greater a claim is the greater the evidence must be."
Well Wizkid, you're going to have an increasingly difficult time rationalizing away the the stream of data being generated by genomics. This is way better than "macro evolution."
mtw writes:
Conclusion; put simply, the insignificant changes evolutionist argue for macro evolution being supported by micro, not matter how much they PLAY UP the examples, just don't show any evidence of macro-scale change.
Actual conclusion; put precisely, macroevolution is just lots of microevolution and your denial of evidence does not make it disappear.
No matter how much you PLAY UP your denials, you never cite any actual specific data or present any evidence. We have museums and libraries around the world full of our supporting evidence and you fail to specifically (or successfully) refute any of it.

Edited by Tanypteryx, .


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 05-24-2022 1:00 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 145 of 2790 (898226)
09-20-2022 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
09-20-2022 1:36 PM


Re: Video not available
So it's hard to figure out what you're trying to accomplish here.
It looks like he's trying to generate traffic on his papers. He doesn't have many reads or citations.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 09-20-2022 1:36 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 8:07 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 151 of 2790 (898241)
09-21-2022 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Kleinman
09-21-2022 8:07 AM


Re: Video not available
Anyway, I like teaching biologists the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.
Really? You don't act like you like it, and you're not very good at it.
Prof Bullshitter writes:
Why so few transitional fossils (are there really any?)
Ah, now I understand why you're such a crappy teacher, it's all bullshit.
Prof Bullshitter writes:
when it takes a billion replications for each transitional adaptational step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
So misrepresenting the probability of beneficial mutations in two experiments on bacteria are your only lessons? You seem to think those two experiments represent everything there is to learn about biological evolution. You say that each of those mutations can only happen AFTER 1 billion replications and then the next mutation has to wait for ANOTHER billion replications and so on. I see now why most of the world's biologists don't pay any attention to you.
We know you're flattered to have gotten the email from Percy, but we all got it, he was just testing that function.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Kleinman, posted 09-21-2022 8:07 AM Kleinman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by dwise1, posted 09-21-2022 12:51 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 155 of 2790 (898249)
09-21-2022 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by dwise1
09-21-2022 12:51 PM


Re: Video not available
dwise1 writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
Kleinman writes:
Anyway, I like teaching biologists the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.
Really? You don't act like you like it, and you're not very good at it.

His is a typical creationist empty boast.
Yep, and belittling his students doesn't seem like a successful strategy for someone dedicated to teaching, more like trying to inflate his own ego. The world's biologists don't seem to be beating a path to his door.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by dwise1, posted 09-21-2022 12:51 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 202 of 2790 (898363)
09-22-2022 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Kleinman
09-22-2022 4:51 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
How many and which mutations gave humans improved reproductive fitness over chimps and why didn't chimps get these mutations?
Why would you expect anyone here to be able to give you that specific list? Are you daft? What proportion of the 7.5 billion people on this planet do you think has access to that list?
Chimps were busy getting their own set of mutations. Why didn't humans get those? You have no way of knowing if either diverging population got some of the same mutations, if they were selected against by the two different environments.
Your method of comparing these two modern species as one "over" the other one is flawed.
There have been multiple intermediate species in both lineages since their common ancestor and on the human side there has only been on twig that escaped extinction. And there is no way to tell how many or which mutations helped us or hindered the extinct ones.
Your problem is that you don't have a clue about how the evolution of complex multicellular organisms happens or how to describe the selective topography of multiple competing species utilizing the same environment. If you are going to refute evolutionary biology as it stands in 2022, you're going to have to up your game significantly more than miscalculating, misrepresenting and misapplying probabilities that you've shown us so far.
Taq writes:
All I am seeing is you referring to big numbers and waving your hands.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 4:51 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Theodoric, posted 09-22-2022 6:35 PM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 205 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 7:09 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 207 of 2790 (898369)
09-22-2022 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Kleinman
09-22-2022 7:09 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
And we are not interested in Taq's neutral evolution calculation.
Oh, I'm interested in Taq's calculations, not your mischaracterization of them. Your math is as flawed as your understanding of biological evolution.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 7:09 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 7:43 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 209 of 2790 (898375)
09-22-2022 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Kleinman
09-22-2022 7:43 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
Neither you nor Taq can correctly do the calculations for the Kishony or Lenski experiments.
Yeah, I don't need to, since I'm not a microbiologist.
He'll do no better on the mathematics of human DNA evolution.
I know he will do better than you.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 7:43 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 211 of 2790 (898378)
09-23-2022 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Kleinman
09-22-2022 7:09 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
Kleinman writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
Why would you expect anyone here to be able to give you that specific list? Are you daft? What proportion of the 7.5 billion people on this planet do you think has access to that list?
Finally! Someone on this forum admits that they don't know!
So that's an affirmative that you are daft and your reading comprehension sucks too!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Kleinman, posted 09-22-2022 7:09 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Kleinman, posted 09-23-2022 8:08 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 215 of 2790 (898393)
09-23-2022 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Kleinman
09-23-2022 8:08 AM


Re: Apples and oranges
Pardon my error in reading comprehension. And Oh boy! Tanypteryx knows and can list the beneficial mutations that give the reproductive fitness advantage of humans over chimp.
Your error continues, I asked you "Why would you expect anyone here to be able to give you that specific list?" And you ignored the question and tried to put words in my mouth. You are playing a gotcha word game, "if you don't know this obviously unknown thing, then you couldn't possibly know that I (Kleinman) am a bullshitter who doesn't actually know anything about the evolution of complex organisms."
Does Taq include experimentation in his scientific method and if so, why does it take a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments? If you duck this question, we will really know who is daffy.
If Taq is a scientist then I assume he knows how to use the scientific method. I saw what you did there, more word games.
Have you conducted any experiments that show that that the rate of acquisition of beneficial mutations from these 2 narrow experiments with bacteria in the Kishony and Lenski experiments also apply to any wild populations of complex multicellular organisms?
And we're still waiting for you giving any reason why microevolutionary events can’t add up to macroevolution.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Kleinman, posted 09-23-2022 8:08 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Taq, posted 09-23-2022 11:39 AM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 222 by Kleinman, posted 09-23-2022 4:58 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 218 of 2790 (898397)
09-23-2022 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Taq
09-23-2022 11:39 AM


Re: Apples and oranges
He is and he does. He is even a microbiologist, and a molecular biologist (hence the username).
Yep, I knew that. I have learned a lot reading your posts.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Taq, posted 09-23-2022 11:39 AM Taq has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 226 of 2790 (898429)
09-23-2022 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Kleinman
09-23-2022 4:58 PM


Re: Apples and oranges
Mathematically, microevolutionary events don't add up.
Biologically, microevolutionary events in sexually reproducing organisms do add up and may lead to speciation.
This is why we can map groups of species into nested hierarchical cladograms based on fossils, genetics, morphology and the patterns of Endogenous Retroviral Insertions in their genomes.
Your proposal of mathematical rules for all of biology based on your calculations from 2 lab experiments using bacteria fails to model reality as reported by observers of evolution over the past 200 years.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Kleinman, posted 09-23-2022 4:58 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 328 of 2790 (899213)
10-10-2022 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by nwr
10-07-2022 12:41 PM


nwr writes:
Kleinman writes:
It appears that Taq has left the building but who can blame him?
Taq is probably tired of responding to your nonsense.
Nonsense indeed. It's interesting to see how Kleinman. a supposed scientist, has refined the Gish Gallop, with a sprinkling of "something, something thermodynamics" and "atheist" thrown in. Taq handed him his ass, but Kleinman was so busy coming up with belittling comments to get it.
Once in a while I have encountered people like him, who apparently took advanced scientific courses and yet failed to understand some basic concepts and then doubled down on their errors when they were pointed out. Taking conclusions from narrow lab experiments on single species of bacteria and applying them as universal rules for all of biology and the evolution of all complex multicellular organisms, when they are obviously incorrect is not going to convince scientists seeing something different in the field.
The funny thing is, this guy's arrogant ignorance alienates all the people who can appreciate the correct parts of his argument. I have noticed these guys being shunned when I've encountered them at scientific meetings.
Competent scientists, in my experience, seek criticism of their ideas, want the holes in their arguments pointed out and self correct when it is appropriate.
Kleinman writes:
The mathematical explanation for the reason that universal common descent is not possible is the multiplication rule of probabilities.
I note also that he has offered no explanation for the patterns of descent we see in cladograms based on genetics and other molecular comparisons and morphology. His whole argument is really the same as Dredge's, "If you don't know the answer to my question, then you can't know anything at all."

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by nwr, posted 10-07-2022 12:41 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 5:38 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
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