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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2416 of 2926 (903280)
12-07-2022 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2413 by Kleinman
12-07-2022 3:32 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Just because the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible ...
Now everyone knows without a doubt that this statement is bogus and has been shown upthread, many times and many ways, to be your religiously motivated lie. Common descent is a known fact and it's utility in all evolutionary processes is requisite.
That's why you're trying to kill it so hard. You want to replace reality with your fictitious gutter religion.
You are a lying religious charlatan, Kleinman, as you have clearly demonstrated.
Yes, We know what's next, Mr. Incompetent OneNote. You're going to want me to go do some math for you. The names Kishony, Lenski, and Desai (Oh my!) come to mind.
You are a fraud, Kleinman, and your science is as fictitious as your blood-soaked 3000 year old evil creed.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2413 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:32 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2417 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 7:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2420 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 8:38 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2417 of 2926 (903291)
12-08-2022 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2416 by AZPaul3
12-07-2022 4:11 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Just a brief note here.
Kleinman rarely talks about religion in his math or dogma. I believe that he mentioned he was a Messianic Jew, but that's all that I have heard from him. Methinks you are showing your antitheist tendencies. And I seriously doubt that Jesus taught him math.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2416 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2022 4:11 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2421 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 8:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2424 by nwr, posted 12-08-2022 11:20 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 2431 by AZPaul3, posted 12-08-2022 1:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2418 of 2926 (903292)
12-08-2022 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2414 by Taq
12-07-2022 3:33 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
We are waiting for you to explain to us how new alleles are created in sexual replicators.
Taq:
New alleles are created by mutation. Where asexual and sexual populations differ is how those beneficial mutations interact within the population.

That's a simpleton's explanation. When do those mutations occur, and how do the probabilities of adaptation change with the population sizes of the variants? And why do HIV, weeds, and insects behave the same way as asexual replicators when subject to multiple simultaneous selection pressures? Why do shuffling alleles make no difference in adaptation in these cases?
To investigate how sex improves the efficiency of selection, we analysed the dynamics of adaptation. As in earlier studies21,22, asexual populations exhibit signatures of hitchhiking and clonal interference (Fig. 2a–d). Groups of functionally unrelated mutations, linked within the same genetic background, change in frequency together as clonal cohorts. The outcomes of evolution are determined by competition between these cohorts. In contrast, sexual populations are not characterized by cohorts of linked mutations (Fig. 2e–h). Instead, the dynamics of each mutation is largely independent of other variation in the population. In these populations, mutations that occur on different backgrounds fix independently, while others briefly hitchhike to moderate frequencies where they persist or are eliminated from the population.
Sex speeds adaptation by altering the dynamics of molecular evolution | Nature
This is a case of a constant environment with a single selection pressure. Do you think it is representative of examples of evolution in real environments with changing environments and multiple selection conditions? And if so, why? You are making a mistake in generalizing the behavior of the Desai experiment to all cases of recombination. And explain to us how descent with modification creates new alleles for sexually replicating populations, not just that mutations occur. Tell us how probabilities change with the population sizes of different variants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2414 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 3:33 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2427 by Taq, posted 12-08-2022 11:28 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2419 of 2926 (903293)
12-08-2022 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 2415 by Taq
12-07-2022 3:35 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
Just because the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible,
Taq:
Your math is wrong because it does not incorporate sexual reproduction.

You are not paying attention Taq, I considered the probabilities of recombination. You can read it here:
Random recombination and evolution of drug resistance
It shows that the probabilities of recombination depend on the frequencies of the different variants in the population. Unless the adaptive alleles can increase in frequencies (as in the Desai experiment), the adaptive recombination event does not occur such as with HIV, weeds, and insects subject to multiple simultaneous selection pressures. This is the mathematical fact that you refuse to accept. You do not understand the limitations of the Desai experiment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2415 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 3:35 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2428 by Taq, posted 12-08-2022 11:33 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2420 of 2926 (903294)
12-08-2022 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2416 by AZPaul3
12-07-2022 4:11 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
Just because the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible ...
AZPaul3:
Now everyone knows without a doubt that this statement is bogus and has been shown upthread, many times and many ways, to be your religiously motivated lie. Common descent is a known fact and it's utility in all evolutionary processes is requisite.

Are you taking some time out of your Spam research? Why don't you tell us how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2416 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2022 4:11 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2432 by AZPaul3, posted 12-08-2022 1:46 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2421 of 2926 (903295)
12-08-2022 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 2417 by Phat
12-08-2022 7:58 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Phat:
Just a brief note here.

Kleinman rarely talks about religion in his math or dogma. I believe that he mentioned he was a Messianic Jew, but that's all that I have heard from him. Methinks you are showing your antitheist tendencies. And I seriously doubt that Jesus taught him math.
I've had many good math teachers. One of them (who I consider my friend) was a 13-year-old Panzerfaust operator in the German army at the end of WW2 and later studied engineering in Germany before coming to the United States. He was also my thermodynamics instructor. You never know, Jesus works in some mysterious ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2417 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 7:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2426 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 11:27 AM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 2429 by Theodoric, posted 12-08-2022 1:11 PM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2422 of 2926 (903303)
12-08-2022 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2408 by Kleinman
12-07-2022 3:23 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
It's not my homework, they are your imaginary links.
Now you're just being dishonest. You can't get along in today's world without using Google and now you expect us to believe that you think Google returns fake links?
Kleinman writes:
Oh boy, ringo is going to give the physical and mathematical explanations for the Kishony, Lenski, and Desai experiments!
Kleinman is going to explain to us why he thinks A → B and A → C are the same as B → C.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2408 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:23 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2430 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 1:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2423 of 2926 (903305)
12-08-2022 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2412 by Kleinman
12-07-2022 3:30 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
We are waiting for you to explain to us how new alleles are created in sexual replicators.
And WE are waiting for YOU to explain how sexual replicators figure into asexual reproduction.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2412 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:30 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2424 of 2926 (903306)
12-08-2022 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2417 by Phat
12-08-2022 7:58 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman rarely talks about religion in his math or dogma.
His creationist spiel is driven by his religion.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2417 by Phat, posted 12-08-2022 7:58 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2433 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 1:47 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 2425 of 2926 (903307)
12-08-2022 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2413 by Kleinman
12-07-2022 3:32 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible,
The DNA evidence (both empirical AND experimental, at the same time, no less) shows that UCD not only IS possible but also IS.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2413 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:32 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 2426 of 2926 (903308)
12-08-2022 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2421 by Kleinman
12-08-2022 8:40 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
One of them (who I consider my friend) was a 13-year-old Panzerfaust operator in the German army at the end of WW2....
Ooh! Ooh! One of my cousins was married to a guy whose father was a General in the German army during WW2; he was a division commander, a recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, who was fired for refusing to put the Hitler Youth in the front line.
Kishony, Lenski, Desai. Amen.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2421 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 8:40 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 2427 of 2926 (903309)
12-08-2022 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2418 by Kleinman
12-08-2022 8:34 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
That's a simpleton's explanation. When do those mutations occur, and how do the probabilities of adaptation change with the population sizes of the variants?
It's how those beneficial mutations move towards fixation that differs between sexual and asexual populations. That's the part you keep getting wrong.
This is a case of a constant environment with a single selection pressure.
Just like the Lenski experiment which you claim is a valid experiment for demonstrating descent with modification.
Also, you keep skipping the fact that the sexual and asexual populations were in the same exact environments. However, there was no clonal interference in the sexual populations, contrary to your papers on the math of evolution.
You are making a mistake in generalizing the behavior of the Desai experiment to all cases of recombination.
So says the person who generalizes to all of evolution based on two experiments using asexual populations.
And explain to us how descent with modification creates new alleles for sexually replicating populations, not just that mutations occur.
I already did that. Here it is again.
To investigate how sex improves the efficiency of selection, we analysed the dynamics of adaptation. As in earlier studies21,22, asexual populations exhibit signatures of hitchhiking and clonal interference (Fig. 2a–d). Groups of functionally unrelated mutations, linked within the same genetic background, change in frequency together as clonal cohorts. The outcomes of evolution are determined by competition between these cohorts. In contrast, sexual populations are not characterized by cohorts of linked mutations (Fig. 2e–h). Instead, the dynamics of each mutation is largely independent of other variation in the population. In these populations, mutations that occur on different backgrounds fix independently, while others briefly hitchhike to moderate frequencies where they persist or are eliminated from the population.
Sex speeds adaptation by altering the dynamics of molecular evolution | Nature
Do I need to walk you through that paper?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2418 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 8:34 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2434 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 1:52 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 2428 of 2926 (903310)
12-08-2022 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2419 by Kleinman
12-08-2022 8:37 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
You are not paying attention Taq, I considered the probabilities of recombination.
Then why do you keep claiming that clonal interference is a problem in human evolution?
It shows that the probabilities of recombination depend on the frequencies of the different variants in the population. Unless the adaptive alleles can increase in frequencies (as in the Desai experiment), the adaptive recombination event does not occur such as with HIV, weeds, and insects subject to multiple simultaneous selection pressures.
Except that it does.
Multidrug-resistant (MDR) HIV-1 presents a challenge to the efficacy of antiretroviral therapy (ART). To examine mechanisms leading to MDR variants in infected individuals, we studied recombination between single viral genomes from the genital tract and plasma of a woman initiating ART. We determined HIV-1 RNA sequences and drug resistance profiles of 159 unique viral variants obtained before ART and semiannually for 4 years thereafter. Soon after initiating zidovudine, lamivudine, and nevirapine, resistant variants and intrapatient HIV-1 recombinants were detected in both compartments; the recombinants had inherited genetic material from both genital and plasma-derived viruses. Twenty-three unique recombinants were documented during 4 years of therapy, comprising ∼22% of variants. Most recombinant genomes displayed similar breakpoints and clustered phylogenetically, suggesting evolution from common ancestors. Longitudinal analysis demonstrated that MDR recombinants were common and persistent, demonstrating that recombination, in addition to point mutation, can contribute to the evolution of MDR HIV-1 in viremic individuals.
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/aid.2011.0383

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2419 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 8:37 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2435 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 1:54 PM Taq has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2429 of 2926 (903321)
12-08-2022 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2421 by Kleinman
12-08-2022 8:40 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
You never know, Jesus works in some mysterious ways.
So not Jewish.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2421 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 8:40 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2436 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 2:01 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2430 of 2926 (903324)
12-08-2022 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2422 by ringo
12-08-2022 11:15 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
It's not my homework, they are your imaginary links.
ringo:
Now you're just being dishonest. You can't get along in today's world without using Google and now you expect us to believe that you think Google returns fake links?

They are your imaginary links and you won't post them because they don't exist.
Message 2423
Kleinman:
We are waiting for you to explain to us how new alleles are created in sexual replicators.
ringo:
And WE are waiting for YOU to explain how sexual replicators figure into asexual reproduction.

Descent with modification works the same way for both replicators. That's why combination selection pressures work for HIV, weeds, and insects. All you need is a population of 1e15 for HIV to evolve to 3 drug therapy. That math is a bit hard for a saddle tramp.
Message 2426
Kleinman:
the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible,
ringo:
The DNA evidence (both empirical AND experimental, at the same time, no less) shows that UCD not only IS possible but also IS.

ringo should know. The lack of transitional fossils and his failure to explain how drug resistance evolve and why cancer treatments fail is all the lack of evidence the ringo needs to be wrongo. Why don't you post one of your imaginary links?
Message 2426
Kleinman:
One of them (who I consider my friend) was a 13-year-old Panzerfaust operator in the German army at the end of WW2....
ringo:
Ooh! Ooh! One of my cousins was married to a guy whose father was a General in the German army during WW2; he was a division commander, a recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, who was fired for refusing to put the Hitler Youth in the front line.

Kishony, Lenski, Desai. Amen.

You obviously didn't learn anything from him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2422 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 11:15 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2462 by ringo, posted 12-09-2022 10:46 AM Kleinman has replied

  
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