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Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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I believe that he mentioned he was a Messianic Jew, but that's all that I have heard from him. That is because you haven't read or understood what this anti-science religionist moron has written. Look at Message 458. That's just one of half a dozen you can find upthread if you look. He is a creationist. Messianic jew means nothing. He's a fundamentalist radical christian. Theist. Creationist. Liar. Dolt. Look at the texts, Phat. Kleinman is as much a believer in the disproven stupidity of the genesis myth as are you. And he has his faux-math to prove it. He is here, as are all radical creationists, to do righteous battle with the evil of evolution. The same old shit they've been trying and failing at for the last 100 years.
Methinks you are showing your antitheist tendencies. Of course. What did you expect in a conversation with an intellectually vacant theist?
And I seriously doubt that Jesus taught him math. If he did then he did a shitty job. The math people here and other forums have shown Kleiman's math is useless self-serving drivel. The guy is a lying anti-science religionist. And a charlatan at that trying to click-bait his errant papers into view. There is no reason we should not stomp on his head then tar and feather his creationist ass. Edited by AZPaul3, . Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Why don't you tell us how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail? I'll leave that to the experts, of which you are not one.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 365 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:The great mathematician nwr decides to join in. nwr will now explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. For a single selection pressure: The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection And for two or more simultaneous selection pressures: The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance Sorry, I forgot, nwr doesn't have either the intelligence or the skill to do the mathematics of biological processes. That would make nwr an ideal candidate for an instructor for a biologists survey of mathematics course.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 365 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Now you are being stupid. Fixation is a consequence of biological competition, not descent with modification. You confuse biological competition with descent with modification, but that shouldn't be surprising, so do most biologists. Kleinman:You really are an idiot. The probability of an adaptive mutation occurring doesn't depend on a constant or changing environment. It only depends on the number of replications done by the different variants in the population. Recombination on the other hand is strongly affected by whether the selection conditions are constant or variable because it affects which alleles are amplified. Until you recognize that Desai subjected his populations to constant selection for 90 generations before allowing them to sexually replicate, you will not understand how biological evolution works. If you think that all biological evolution works this way, you really are an idiot. Kleinman:Then, why don't you explain how descent with modification works for sexual replicators? You are so confused, you think that biological competition and recombination are the same processes as descent with modification. That explains why you have failed to explain biological evolution, even for asexual replicators. Kleinman:You are a liar. You haven't explained descent with modification. All you have done is blah, blah, blah, about biological competition and recombination. To investigate how sex improves the efficiency of selection, we analysed the dynamics of adaptation. As in earlier studies21,22, asexual populations exhibit signatures of hitchhiking and clonal interference (Fig. 2a–d). Groups of functionally unrelated mutations, linked within the same genetic background, change in frequency together as clonal cohorts. The outcomes of evolution are determined by competition between these cohorts. In contrast, sexual populations are not characterized by cohorts of linked mutations (Fig. 2e–h). Instead, the dynamics of each mutation is largely independent of other variation in the population. In these populations, mutations that occur on different backgrounds fix independently, while others briefly hitchhike to moderate frequencies where they persist or are eliminated from the population.
No Taq, you don't need to walk me through that paper. It is a single selection pressure, constant environment, evolutionary process that you so ignorantly want to apply to all biological evolution. You are wrong, and that is why combination selection pressures work for HIV, weeds, and insects. It appears that in your 26 years of research that you never learned what combination selection pressures do to a population in a varying environment. Why don't you explain why recombination doesn't help these populations evolve since you won't explain how descent with modification works for a sexually replicating population?
Sex speeds adaptation by altering the dynamics of molecular evolution | Nature Taq:
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 365 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:It is because humans and every other replicator is not evolving in a constant environment. You need to learn where experiments in biological evolution diverge from evolution in real environments. For example, a constant environment of 90 generations allows some alleles to amplify. This doesn't happen when the environment is changing such as in "real world" environments. As long as you take this as fact, you will fail to understand real evolutionary processes. That's why you have failed to explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Kleinman:Master virologist, Taq, now claims that combination therapy doesn't work for treating HIV, weeds, and insects. That's your cue for saying "I never said that". Multidrug-resistant (MDR) HIV-1 presents a challenge to the efficacy of antiretroviral therapy (ART). To examine mechanisms leading to MDR variants in infected individuals, we studied recombination between single viral genomes from the genital tract and plasma of a woman initiating ART. We determined HIV-1 RNA sequences and drug resistance profiles of 159 unique viral variants obtained before ART and semiannually for 4 years thereafter. Soon after initiating zidovudine, lamivudine, and nevirapine, resistant variants and intrapatient HIV-1 recombinants were detected in both compartments; the recombinants had inherited genetic material from both genital and plasma-derived viruses. Twenty-three unique recombinants were documented during 4 years of therapy, comprising ∼22% of variants. Most recombinant genomes displayed similar breakpoints and clustered phylogenetically, suggesting evolution from common ancestors. Longitudinal analysis demonstrated that MDR recombinants were common and persistent, demonstrating that recombination, in addition to point mutation, can contribute to the evolution of MDR HIV-1 in viremic individuals.
Taq quotes a 10-year-old paper that shows that recombination causes HIV treatment to fail, therefore, combination therapy for the treatment of HIV does not work. You are brilliant, you should get your claim published.
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/aid.2011.0383
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 365 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Does being an atheist make you a master of all religions? It certainly doesn't make you a master of biological evolution. In fact, it makes you pretty stupid, you can't even explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Here's how it works. For a single selection pressure: The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection And for two or more simultaneous selection pressures: The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance Theodoric has trouble doing the mathematics of biological evolution but he is a master of all religions.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 365 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Yeah, right. Biologists have had more than 60 years to figure out how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Of course, for a dimwit like you, that makes them experts. They don't understand the laws of thermodynamics and they can't explain a simple biological evolutionary problem. You are an ignoramus that looks to other ignoramuses to explain a simple thermodynamics problem. You are just mad because your bubble has burst and you need another reason to justify your belief in atheism.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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You are just mad because your bubble has burst and you need another reason to justify your belief in atheism. Belief in atheism. Wow. You really don't comprehend the issues at all. Atheism is, literally, no belief. Now your twisted creationist brain is going to go down a dueling-definitions rabbit hole trying to fight this well established fact. Stupid. You're a fraud, Kleinman. And everyone needs to hear it. Often.
They don't understand the laws of thermodynamics and they can't explain a simple biological evolutionary problem They know a hell of a lot more than you and can explain their discipline a hell of a lot better than you. You are an ignorant fraud, Kleinman.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 365 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:I believe you AZPaul3, you don't believe in anything, except everything you believe in. For example, you believe that reptiles evolve into birds, and fish evolve into mammals. And you know that is a fact because someone told you they had a transitional fossil. Of course, that someone can't tell you how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. You started out as a naive school child and you have grown into a naive adult.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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The guy is a lying anti-science religionist. And a charlatan at that trying to click-bait his errant papers into view. There is no reason we should not stomp on his head then tar and feather his creationist ass. You forgot, he's also a QUACK! Edited by Tanypteryx, . Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Kleinman writes: It is because humans and every other replicator is not evolving in a constant environment. If that is what you think then you know nothing about biology. It isn't a changing environment that causes clonal interference.
Taq quotes a 10-year-old paper that shows that recombination causes HIV treatment to fail, therefore, combination therapy for the treatment of HIV does not work. I never said that. You claimed that multi-drug resistance does not evolve in HIV, and that it definitely doesn't do so by recombination. In reality, it does. Reality wins. You are wrong.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Kleinman writes: They don't understand the laws of thermodynamics and they can't explain a simple biological evolutionary problem. So says the person who can't measure the entropy of a DNA sequence, and a person who thinks changing environments cause clonal interference in sexual organisms.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Kleinman writes: Fixation is a consequence of biological competition, not descent with modification. Then you don't understand what either is.
The probability of an adaptive mutation occurring doesn't depend on a constant or changing environment. It only depends on the number of replications done by the different variants in the population. You are missing a big part of the probability which is the total number of possible beneficial mutations in a given genome in a given environment. That is why adaptive mutations for different phenotypes will occur at different rates, such as in the case of the Lederberg experiment where beneficial mutation rates differed by a factor of 1,000 for different adaptive phenotypes. This is the part you keep getting wrong. It's like claiming the odds of guessing heads on the flip of a coin is 1 in 150 million because those are the odds of winning the Powerball.
Recombination on the other hand is strongly affected by whether the selection conditions are constant or variable because it affects which alleles are amplified. Why would a changing environment cause clonal interference in a sexual population? Explain.
Until you recognize that Desai subjected his populations to constant selection for 90 generations before allowing them to sexually replicate, you will not understand how biological evolution works. If you think that all biological evolution works this way, you really are an idiot. The asexual populations were in the same exact conditions, and they had clonal interference. The sexual populations did not. Can you explain this or not? Guess what, it has nothing to do with the constant environment. If it did, then there wouldn't have been clonal interference in the asexual populations.
Then, why don't you explain how descent with modification works for sexual replicators?
I ALREADY HAVE!!!!!
To investigate how sex improves the efficiency of selection, we analysed the dynamics of adaptation. As in earlier studies21,22, asexual populations exhibit signatures of hitchhiking and clonal interference (Fig. 2a–d). Groups of functionally unrelated mutations, linked within the same genetic background, change in frequency together as clonal cohorts. The outcomes of evolution are determined by competition between these cohorts. In contrast, sexual populations are not characterized by cohorts of linked mutations (Fig. 2e–h). Instead, the dynamics of each mutation is largely independent of other variation in the population. In these populations, mutations that occur on different backgrounds fix independently, while others briefly hitchhike to moderate frequencies where they persist or are eliminated from the population. Sex speeds adaptation by altering the dynamics of molecular evolution | Nature Notice the bit about beneficial mutations moving towards fixation independently of other alleles? That's how it works. added in edit . . . If you need a more obvious explanation:
quote: Edited by Taq, .
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
you believe that reptiles evolve into birds No. We KNOW that reptiles and birds share a common ancestor millions of years ago.
and fish evolve into mammals. No. We KNOW that hundreds of millions of years ago aquatic creatures adapted to land and from there the amphibians evolved into separate distinct lineages including reptiles extending to mammals and on to lying religionists.
And you know that is a fact because someone told you they had a transitional fossil. I have an elevated level of confidence in the conclusions of experts that study and identify fossils showing evolved traits between lineages. I have no confidence in the insinuations or pronouncements of a religious fraud like yourself.
Of course, that someone can't tell you how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Neither can you Kleinman. In many forums your studies and their conclusions have been shown to be a fake. You are a known fraud. You are religion. Lying evil. You are poison to the human species.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Kleinman writes: Of course, that someone can't tell you how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. You can't tell us how drug resistance evolves. You get it wrong at every turn. For example, why does chloramphenicol resistance evolve faster in sexual hypermutating strains of E. coli than it does in standard and hypermutating strains of asexual E. coli? Why does sexual reproduction fail to speed up evolution of trimethoprim resistance? Sexual recombination and increased mutation rate expedite evolution of Escherichia coli in varied fitness landscapes - PMC
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