|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8561 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Just because the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible ... Now everyone knows without a doubt that this statement is bogus and has been shown upthread, many times and many ways, to be your religiously motivated lie. Common descent is a known fact and it's utility in all evolutionary processes is requisite. That's why you're trying to kill it so hard. You want to replace reality with your fictitious gutter religion. You are a lying religious charlatan, Kleinman, as you have clearly demonstrated. Yes, We know what's next, Mr. Incompetent OneNote. You're going to want me to go do some math for you. The names Kishony, Lenski, and Desai (Oh my!) come to mind. You are a fraud, Kleinman, and your science is as fictitious as your blood-soaked 3000 year old evil creed.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just a brief note here.
Kleinman rarely talks about religion in his math or dogma. I believe that he mentioned he was a Messianic Jew, but that's all that I have heard from him. Methinks you are showing your antitheist tendencies. And I seriously doubt that Jesus taught him math.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:That's a simpleton's explanation. When do those mutations occur, and how do the probabilities of adaptation change with the population sizes of the variants? And why do HIV, weeds, and insects behave the same way as asexual replicators when subject to multiple simultaneous selection pressures? Why do shuffling alleles make no difference in adaptation in these cases? To investigate how sex improves the efficiency of selection, we analysed the dynamics of adaptation. As in earlier studies21,22, asexual populations exhibit signatures of hitchhiking and clonal interference (Fig. 2a–d). Groups of functionally unrelated mutations, linked within the same genetic background, change in frequency together as clonal cohorts. The outcomes of evolution are determined by competition between these cohorts. In contrast, sexual populations are not characterized by cohorts of linked mutations (Fig. 2e–h). Instead, the dynamics of each mutation is largely independent of other variation in the population. In these populations, mutations that occur on different backgrounds fix independently, while others briefly hitchhike to moderate frequencies where they persist or are eliminated from the population.
This is a case of a constant environment with a single selection pressure. Do you think it is representative of examples of evolution in real environments with changing environments and multiple selection conditions? And if so, why? You are making a mistake in generalizing the behavior of the Desai experiment to all cases of recombination. And explain to us how descent with modification creates new alleles for sexually replicating populations, not just that mutations occur. Tell us how probabilities change with the population sizes of different variants.
Sex speeds adaptation by altering the dynamics of molecular evolution | Nature
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:You are not paying attention Taq, I considered the probabilities of recombination. You can read it here: Random recombination and evolution of drug resistance It shows that the probabilities of recombination depend on the frequencies of the different variants in the population. Unless the adaptive alleles can increase in frequencies (as in the Desai experiment), the adaptive recombination event does not occur such as with HIV, weeds, and insects subject to multiple simultaneous selection pressures. This is the mathematical fact that you refuse to accept. You do not understand the limitations of the Desai experiment.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Are you taking some time out of your Spam research? Why don't you tell us how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Phat:I've had many good math teachers. One of them (who I consider my friend) was a 13-year-old Panzerfaust operator in the German army at the end of WW2 and later studied engineering in Germany before coming to the United States. He was also my thermodynamics instructor. You never know, Jesus works in some mysterious ways.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
Now you're just being dishonest. You can't get along in today's world without using Google and now you expect us to believe that you think Google returns fake links?
It's not my homework, they are your imaginary links. Kleinman writes:
Kleinman is going to explain to us why he thinks A → B and A → C are the same as B → C. Oh boy, ringo is going to give the physical and mathematical explanations for the Kishony, Lenski, and Desai experiments!Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
And WE are waiting for YOU to explain how sexual replicators figure into asexual reproduction. We are waiting for you to explain to us how new alleles are created in sexual replicators.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Kleinman rarely talks about religion in his math or dogma. His creationist spiel is driven by his religion.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Kleinman writes:
The DNA evidence (both empirical AND experimental, at the same time, no less) shows that UCD not only IS possible but also IS. the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible,Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Kleinman writes:
Ooh! Ooh! One of my cousins was married to a guy whose father was a General in the German army during WW2; he was a division commander, a recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, who was fired for refusing to put the Hitler Youth in the front line. One of them (who I consider my friend) was a 13-year-old Panzerfaust operator in the German army at the end of WW2.... Kishony, Lenski, Desai. Amen.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: That's a simpleton's explanation. When do those mutations occur, and how do the probabilities of adaptation change with the population sizes of the variants? It's how those beneficial mutations move towards fixation that differs between sexual and asexual populations. That's the part you keep getting wrong.
This is a case of a constant environment with a single selection pressure. Just like the Lenski experiment which you claim is a valid experiment for demonstrating descent with modification. Also, you keep skipping the fact that the sexual and asexual populations were in the same exact environments. However, there was no clonal interference in the sexual populations, contrary to your papers on the math of evolution.
You are making a mistake in generalizing the behavior of the Desai experiment to all cases of recombination. So says the person who generalizes to all of evolution based on two experiments using asexual populations.
And explain to us how descent with modification creates new alleles for sexually replicating populations, not just that mutations occur. I already did that. Here it is again.
To investigate how sex improves the efficiency of selection, we analysed the dynamics of adaptation. As in earlier studies21,22, asexual populations exhibit signatures of hitchhiking and clonal interference (Fig. 2a–d). Groups of functionally unrelated mutations, linked within the same genetic background, change in frequency together as clonal cohorts. The outcomes of evolution are determined by competition between these cohorts. In contrast, sexual populations are not characterized by cohorts of linked mutations (Fig. 2e–h). Instead, the dynamics of each mutation is largely independent of other variation in the population. In these populations, mutations that occur on different backgrounds fix independently, while others briefly hitchhike to moderate frequencies where they persist or are eliminated from the population. Sex speeds adaptation by altering the dynamics of molecular evolution | Nature Do I need to walk you through that paper?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Kleinman writes: You are not paying attention Taq, I considered the probabilities of recombination. Then why do you keep claiming that clonal interference is a problem in human evolution?
It shows that the probabilities of recombination depend on the frequencies of the different variants in the population. Unless the adaptive alleles can increase in frequencies (as in the Desai experiment), the adaptive recombination event does not occur such as with HIV, weeds, and insects subject to multiple simultaneous selection pressures. Except that it does.
Multidrug-resistant (MDR) HIV-1 presents a challenge to the efficacy of antiretroviral therapy (ART). To examine mechanisms leading to MDR variants in infected individuals, we studied recombination between single viral genomes from the genital tract and plasma of a woman initiating ART. We determined HIV-1 RNA sequences and drug resistance profiles of 159 unique viral variants obtained before ART and semiannually for 4 years thereafter. Soon after initiating zidovudine, lamivudine, and nevirapine, resistant variants and intrapatient HIV-1 recombinants were detected in both compartments; the recombinants had inherited genetic material from both genital and plasma-derived viruses. Twenty-three unique recombinants were documented during 4 years of therapy, comprising ∼22% of variants. Most recombinant genomes displayed similar breakpoints and clustered phylogenetically, suggesting evolution from common ancestors. Longitudinal analysis demonstrated that MDR recombinants were common and persistent, demonstrating that recombination, in addition to point mutation, can contribute to the evolution of MDR HIV-1 in viremic individuals.
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/aid.2011.0383
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
You never know, Jesus works in some mysterious ways.
So not Jewish.What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 363 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:They are your imaginary links and you won't post them because they don't exist. Message 2423 Kleinman:Descent with modification works the same way for both replicators. That's why combination selection pressures work for HIV, weeds, and insects. All you need is a population of 1e15 for HIV to evolve to 3 drug therapy. That math is a bit hard for a saddle tramp. Message 2426 Kleinman:ringo should know. The lack of transitional fossils and his failure to explain how drug resistance evolve and why cancer treatments fail is all the lack of evidence the ringo needs to be wrongo. Why don't you post one of your imaginary links? Message 2426 Kleinman:You obviously didn't learn anything from him.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024