Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."

Kleinman:

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But here's how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

AZPaul3:

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Liar. Charlatan. Fraud.
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Your papers are bogus and have been rejected.

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That's why the peer-reviewers and editors at Statistics in Medicine accepted and published them. They wanted to know how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail, not like some very dry atheist imagines how evolution happens. For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
It doesn't work like some very dry atheist imagines evolution would work. They wanted a real explanation not some story about reptiles evolving into birds and fish evolving into mammals.

Kleinman:

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AZPaul3 can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail but can explain how reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals.

Dredge:

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LOL!!

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He does have a very strange imagination. It is shared by so many biologists and that's why they have failed to explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. It really is a harmful thing they have done to society.

Kleinman:

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Taq, you are a stupid ass that doesn't know a thing about Markov processes which are entropy processes or the thermodynamics of biological evolution.

Taq:

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Apparently, we know a lot more than you do because you can't address anything we have posted.
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You can't even understand how the evolution of phage resistance is descent with modification.

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Go ahead virologist that knows everything about evolution except how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Tell us how phages make UCD possible. And then you can give us your wisdom about Markov processes, and the second law of thermodynamics. Tell us how some Markov processes don't apply to the second law of thermodynamics. You will post zero examples of that just like you post zero examples of how biologists have explained how drug resistance evolves and cancer treatments fail. Since you got your recent epiphany about Markov processes, perhaps you want to learn about DNA evolution using Markov chains.
Models of DNA evolution - Wikipedia
Let's see how much you know, so far it has been very little and that has been wrong.

Kleinman:

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Go for it, prove UCD with phages.

Taq:

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So you are saying that descent with modification in the Lenski and Kishony experiments is proof of UCD?

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You are confused, it takes a billion replications in each experiment for each adaptive step.

Kleinman:

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I showed you that descent with modification is a disordering process that can be modeled with a Markov chain and that a Markov chain is an entropy-producing process.

Taq:

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No, you didn't. You simply asserted it. You have no evidence, and zero understanding of how thermodynamics works.

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That's why you are an idiot. If descent with modification goes on, eventually the DNA will be random sequences. And here are a few examples from a search using "Markov entropy"
Maximum-entropy Markov model - Wikipedia
(PDF) Entropy: The Markov Ordering Approach | George G Judge - Academia.edu
Maximum-Entropy Markov Model
https://www.sciencedirect.com/...ticle/pii/S2352220814000467
Entropy rate - Wikipedia
https://uweb.engr.arizona.edu/...tropy_of_markov_sources.pdf
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You don't know what a Markov process is, you are just blowing hot air.

Kleinman:

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Which Markov processes don't produce entropy and when is entropy not a thermodynamic variable?

Taq:

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Entropy is not a thermodynamic variable when it is used in information theory, as explained already. Those are analogous processes, not homologous.

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You are an idiot and don't know what you are talking about. You dummy.

Kleinman:

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For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
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Kleinman:

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What this empirical example demonstrates is that the sequence of mutations must occur in an order ofever increasing fitness in order for the evolutionary process to have a reasonable chance of occurring.

Taq:

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That is not true for sexual populations. In sexual populations, beneficial alleles fix independently and are moved from separate genetic backgrounds into the same genetic background. Of course, you will never address this.

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Yeah, we know your claim that 3 drug combination therapy doesn't work for the treatment of HIV, and combination therapy doesn't work for weeds and insects. You are a brilliant virologist. No wonder biologists can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail with your kind of thinking.

Kleinman:

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You are confused, it takes a billion replications in each experiment for each adaptive step.

Taq:

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It's up to you to demonstrate that the Kishony and Lenski experiments prove UCD.

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Oh, the Kishony and Lenski experiments demonstrate common descent, it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation for a single selection pressure in a constant environment.

Kleinman:

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If descent with modification goes on, eventually the DNA will be random sequences.

Taq:

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That has nothing to do with thermodynamics.

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Sure it does, slow learner, that's called entropy.

Kleinman:

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You are an idiot and don't know what you are talking about. You dummy.

Taq:

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You still can't address anything I post.

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Did you post about how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail? Or how about giving us an example of how a Markov process works? You can also tell us how a germ cell line can have 200k retroviral infections that do no harm, not about some retroviral infection in koalas that threatens them with extinction. I'll stick with explaining how drug resistance evolves. For a single selection condition:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
You can tell us how sexual reproduction causes 3 drug combination therapy for HIV to fail and why combination selection pressures don't work on weeds and insects.

Kleinman:

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Tell us how phages make UCD possible. And then you can give us your wisdom about Markov processes, and the second law of thermodynamics.

Taq:

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The very same way that you think the Lenski and Kishony experiment, drug resistance, and cancer drug resistance prove UCD.

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Don't be silly, the Kishony and Lenski experiment takes a billion replications for each adaptive step for a single selection pressure in a constant environment. It's all about the multiplication rule of probabilities. Each selection pressure causes another instance of the multiplication rule to be applied to the evolutionary process. That's why 3 drug combination therapy for the treatment of HIV works. This is really hard for you to understand but that is how it works.

Kleinman:

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Tell us how some Markov processes don't apply to the second law of thermodynamics.

Taq:

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Category error. Bears are mammals, but not all mammals are bears. Markov processes can relate to thermodynamics in some systems, but not others. Entropy is about the energy available for work in a system, and you aren't addressing that at all.
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Let's say we start with a handful of DNA molecules of about 3 kbp, some primers specific to the 5' and 3' ends of the DNA molecules, free nucleotides, buffers/salts, and a polymerase. We cycle the temperature up and down between 60 and 95 C about 40 times. What we end up with is far fewer free nucleotides and a whole bunch of 3 kbp DNA molecules.
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Has entropy gone up or down? How do you measure it? How do the sequences factor in to your calculation?

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Markov processes always generate entropy. And random mutations which cause diversification of the population will ultimately lead to random genetic sequences which is the end result of an entropy-producing process. Of course, you are an expert in Markov processes, aren't you? Tell us how to formulate a Markov chain.

Kleinman:

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Oh, the Kishony and Lenski experiments demonstrate common descent, it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation for a single selection pressure in a constant environment.

Taq:

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So you are saying that the Kishony and Lenski experiments support UCD using your own criteria.

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There's a difference between "common descent" and "universal common descent". Do I have to explain that difference to you?

Kleinman:

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Did you post about how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail? Or how about giving us an example of how a Markov process works?

Taq:

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This is how antibiotic resistance evolves in sexual populations, and you won't address it. The multiple mutations conferring CM resistance independently move towards fixation and are moved into the same genetic background in the sexually reproducing populations.

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So that's why you believe that 3 drug combination therapy doesn't work for the treatment of HIV and combination selection pressures don't work for weeds and insects. You really know how to treat infectious diseases, don't treat them at all because they will all evolve resistance.

Kleinman:

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Mendel did the math for his observations,

Taq:

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Then why don't you use Mendel's math in your calculations.

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Using Mendel's math only reduces the probability of a recombination event and complicates the calculation which only confuses you even more.

Kleinman:

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I can explain the physics and math of Darwinian evolution and correlate this explanation to biological evolutionary experiments to predict the behavior of these experiments.

Taq:

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You have failed to do so in every experiment that uses sexual reproduction.

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I know, 3 drug combination therapy doesn't work for the treatment of HIV, and combination selection pressures don't work for weeds and insects. You think that shuffling genes (recombination) is a much larger factor than it really is. The reality is that recombination has very little effect on the evolution of drug resistance. That is why 3 drug therapy works for the treatment of HIV and combination selection pressures works for the treatment of weeds and insects.

Kleinman:

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There's a difference between "common descent" and "universal common descent". Do I have to explain that difference to you?

Taq:

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You are the one saying that the Lenski and Kishony experiments prove UCD. Don't look at me.

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You are confused.

Kleinman:

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So that's why you believe that 3 drug combination therapy doesn't work for the treatment of HIV and combination selection pressures don't work for weeds and insects. You really know how to treat infectious diseases, don't treat them at all because they will all evolve resistance.

Taq:

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Now you are saying that 3 drug combination therapy and combination selection pressure in weeds proves UCD.

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Sure, HIV is evolving into a wookie and weeds are evolving into "the thing".

Kleinman:

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You are confused.

Taq:

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I'm not confused. You are claiming that the Lenski and Kishony experiment are proof of UCD in the very same way you are saying that I am trying to prove UCD with the Lederberg experiment.

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You really are confused. The Kishony and Lenski experiments show that UCD is not possible. If you, in your confused mind, think that UCD is possible using the Lederberg experiment, go for it. Do the math for the experiment, not some pretend mathematics like you like to do.

Kleinman:

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Sure, HIV is evolving into a wookie and weeds are evolving into "the thing".

Taq:

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Now you are saying that we shouldn't use 3 drug treatment programs with HIV. Why?

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Why? It was in your great wisdom. Recombination will always make these treatments fail. We are lucky to have such a great and wise virologist to lead the way.

Kleinman:

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The Kishony and Lenski experiments show that UCD is not possible.

Taq:

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The Kishony and Lenski experiments are not descent with modification?

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They haven't been infected with retroviruses yet, then they will really evolve.

Kleinman:

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Why? It was in your great wisdom. Recombination will always make these treatments fail. We are lucky to have such a great and wise virologist to lead the way.

Taq:

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You are the one who is saying that we shouldn't use these treatments. Don't look at me.

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It's all those alleles going to fixation. Now tell us how to do a Markov chain. You know, the one that doesn't increase entropy and doesn't obey the second law of thermodynamics.

Kleinman:

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They haven't been infected with retroviruses yet, then they will really evolve.

Taq:

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So this whole time you've been going on and on about those experiments, and they aren't even descent with modification. Go figure.

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Who needs descent with modification when you have retroviruses. You got 200k retroviruses and none cause harm. Isn't that nice?

Kleinman:

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Now tell us how to do a Markov chain.

Taq:

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Don't you have google?

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It directed me to you. It said you know all about Markov chains that don't have entropy and don't involve the laws of thermodynamics. They said you were the expert. Oh great and wise virologist, tell us all.

Kleinman:

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Who needs descent with modification when you have retroviruses. You got 200k retroviruses and none cause harm. Isn't that nice?

Taq:

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There goes all of your papers. Guess they are all wrong. None of them actually refer to descent with modification.

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Yep, they are all wrong, they haven't anything to do with descent with modification, except adaptation such as how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

Theodoric:

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Yup he doesn't even understand why.

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I'm sure Theodoric will explain it, just like he explained how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.