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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 15 of 2383 (897987)
09-17-2022 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by FossilDiscovery
05-12-2022 10:45 PM


Video not available
I tried to watch the video but it is no longer available. The responses to this though appear to be made by people that don't understand either the physics or math of biological evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by FossilDiscovery, posted 05-12-2022 10:45 PM FossilDiscovery has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 12:16 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 17 of 2383 (897994)
09-17-2022 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by AZPaul3
09-17-2022 12:16 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
The responses to this though appear to be made by people that don't understand either the physics or math of biological evolution.
AZPaul3:
Good. You can correct those errors.

What is your first one?

Let's start with the physics of Darwinian evolution. What are the two physical processes that Darwin described? Then tell us what laws of thermodynamics applies to these processes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 12:16 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 1:29 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 1:45 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 2:49 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 20 of 2383 (898000)
09-17-2022 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by dwise1
09-17-2022 1:29 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Let's start with the physics of Darwinian evolution. What are the two physical processes that Darwin described? Then tell us what laws of thermodynamics applies to these processes.
dwise1:
The physics of neo-Darwinian evolution (we have learned a lot in the past 163 years) are the same as the physics of life itself. An operational definition of evolution would be "the net results of populations of organisms doing what life normally does."

Therefore, trying to "disprove evolution" by abusing thermodynamics et alia would also be an attempt to prove life to be impossible. That one is not going to fly -- never has, never will.

But go ahead and knock yourself out. Just don't expect me to make the trip to the pantry for the microwave popcorn. I've seen this show before.

It takes a lot of words for dwise1 to say that he doesn't know what the physical processes are that Darwin is describing. dwise1 needs a hint:
Darwin wrote:
For it should be remembered that the competition will generally be most severe between those forms which are most nearly related to each other in habits, constitution, and structure. Hence all the intermediate forms between the earlier and later states, that is between the less and more improved state of a species, as well as the original parent-species itself, will generally tend to become extinct. So it probably will be with many whole collateral lines of descent, which will be conquered by later and improved lines of descent. If, however, the modified offspring of a species get into some distinct country, or become quickly adapted to some quite new station, in which child and parent do not come into competition, both may continue to exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 1:29 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 4:22 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 21 of 2383 (898001)
09-17-2022 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by AZPaul3
09-17-2022 1:45 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Then tell us what laws of thermodynamics applies to these processes.
AZPaul3:
No. Why would I do that?

This is your classroom. You have a problem with thermodynamics? What is it?

You tell us how it works.

That's the point AZPaul3, you don't know how to do the physics and math of biological evolution. I don't have a problem with thermodynamics. Try reading the quote from Darwin that I posted to dwise1 and see if you can see the physical processes he is describing. Don't give up so easily. You will be surprised how simple this is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 1:45 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 2:04 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 24 of 2383 (898006)
09-17-2022 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by AZPaul3
09-17-2022 2:04 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Try reading the quote from Darwin that I posted
AZPaul3:
Did that. So what? You tell me what you think it says.

This is your topic, now. I'm not playing guessing games with you.

Sure, you are playing guessing games. If you weren't, you could clearly point out the physical processes that Darwin wrote about. Darwin was qualitatively correct in describing the two most important processes of biological evolution. What Darwin didn't do is describe those processes quantitatively (mathematically).
What Darwin is talking about in that paragraph are two physical processes. One process is what Darwin calls "the struggle for existence" and the other process is adaptation. Do I have to spoon-feed you which laws of thermodynamics apply to each of these processes? Here's another hint. Try to figure out what the different populations are struggling for in a given environment.
AZPaul3:
BTW, No one cares what Darwin said on evolution 150 years ago. We have advanced the discipline considerably since he wrote his initial observations. If you want to look like less a fool you'll refer to quotes on the modern synthesis.
You should care about what Darwin said because he was correct. And his understanding of biological evolution explains how antimicrobial drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Of course, if you think that modern synthesis explains this, post this explanation, you won't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 2:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 3:18 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 25 of 2383 (898008)
09-17-2022 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
09-17-2022 2:49 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
What are the two physical processes that Darwin described? Then tell us what laws of thermodynamics applies to these processes.
Percy:
Ooh, ooh, I know. For the first one, natural selection and descent with modification. For the second one, all of them.

Now, we are getting somewhere. You almost got this right, Percy. Do you think that natural selection (what Darwin calls the struggle for existence or what I like to call competition between different variants in a population (and what are these variants competing for?)) and descent with modification (adaptation) are the same physical processes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 2:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 3:17 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 3:32 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 28 of 2383 (898013)
09-17-2022 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Percy
09-17-2022 3:17 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Now, we are getting somewhere. You almost got this right, Percy. Do you think that natural selection (what Darwin calls the struggle for existence or what I like to call competition between different variants in a population (and what are these variants competing for?)) and descent with modification (adaptation) are the same physical processes?
Percy:
Aw, shucks, Professor Kleinman, I don't think I'm ever gonna get this evolution stuff. It's all just so complicated. So what *are* the two physical processes that Darwin described? And which of the laws of thermodynamics do they not follow?

You can get this Percy. Just read carefully. The two processes Darwin is describing are biological competition, that's the part that natural selection acts on (relative reproductive fitness) and the other is descent with modification. Sometimes those modifications are adaptive. This process depends on mutations.
These processes certainly obey the laws of thermodynamics. Now, start with the concept of biological competition. What are the different populations competing for? Once you figure this out, the math for this process becomes obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 3:17 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 4:15 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 30 of 2383 (898015)
09-17-2022 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by AZPaul3
09-17-2022 3:18 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
You should care about what Darwin said because he was correct.
AZPaul3:
In a lot of ways, yes, but he was not complete. The modern synthesis includes all of Darwin (modified) along with Mendel, evo-devo, population genetics and ++.

No one is saying Darwin was wrong as far as his more general observations go. But if you're going to discuss evolution you need to understand more than a few passages of Darwin.


Mendel did the math for his observations, Darwin did not do the math for his observations. And you don't understand either the physics or math of Darwin's observations. If you learn how to do this physics and math, then you can try to include Mendel's observations or any other evolutionary process you can imagine.
Kleinman:
Of course, if you think that modern synthesis explains this, post this explanation, you won't.
AZPaul3:
You really do not understand the subject.

I can explain the physics and math of Darwinian evolution and correlate this explanation to biological evolutionary experiments to predict the behavior of these experiments. You can't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 3:18 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1615 by Taq, posted 11-14-2022 12:02 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 2365 by Taq, posted 11-29-2022 11:43 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 31 of 2383 (898016)
09-17-2022 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AZPaul3
09-17-2022 3:32 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Do you think that natural selection (what Darwin calls the struggle for existence or what I like to call competition between different variants in a population (and what are these variants competing for?)) and descent with modification (adaptation) are the same physical processes?
AZPaul3:
Oh, you mean reproductive differential.

Let's test your knowledge. How do you think the fittest are determined? What is the one overriding factor that controls all of population genetics and, thus, all of evolution?

And then how do your concerns with thermodynamics disrupt this set of processes?

Relative fitness must be measured for each particular population in a given environment. It depends on the selection condition(s) the population is subject to.
Biological competition "disrupt" (slows) adaptation. This is a consequence of the first law of thermodynamics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 3:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 4:04 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 4:09 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 40 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2022 4:43 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 45 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 5:07 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 35 of 2383 (898023)
09-17-2022 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
09-17-2022 4:04 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Relative fitness must be measured for each particular popula ...
AZPaul3:
Bzzzt! Wrong.

Ok, as I suspected you do not know what evolution is. You have your misconceptions of Darwin but no understanding of the actual product.

Oh really??? You can predict the relative fitness of different variants in any environment? Show us how to predict the relative fitness of the different variants in the Lenski Long Term Evolution Experiment. You won't.
Kleinman:
I can explain the physics and math of Darwinian evolution and correlate ...
AZPaul3:
Bullshit!

I wrote a short paper for laymen like you, no math.
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 4:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 4:37 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 09-18-2022 3:35 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 37 of 2383 (898025)
09-17-2022 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
09-17-2022 4:15 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Now, start with the concept of biological competition. What are the different populations competing for? Once you figure this out, the math for this process becomes obvious.
Percy:
There's math? Golly whiz, no one told me there was math. Are they competing for lebensraum?

What fun is physics without math? Think about what the meaning of the carrying capacity of an environment means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 4:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 8:06 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 39 of 2383 (898027)
09-17-2022 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by dwise1
09-17-2022 4:22 PM


Re: Video not available
dwise1:
You left something out of that quotation. IOW, you lifted it out of context, typical creationist act.
...
Almost as if you're just trying to bullshit us. Which is so tiringly typical of creationists.
How does competition with some variants going extinct affect "Divergence of Character"?
I'm not trying to bullshit you. I'm trying to explain to you the physics of Darwinian evolution. Since you are so impatient, just read this:
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 4:22 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 7:23 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 52 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2022 8:04 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 54 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 8:10 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 41 of 2383 (898029)
09-17-2022 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by AZPaul3
09-17-2022 4:37 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
I wrote a short paper for laymen like you, no math.
AZPaul3:
Yeah, the same ego-based bs you posted the last time you were here. Rejected.

Distribution of fixed beneficial mutations and the rate of adaptation in asexual populations
Why did the Lenski team say the following:
quote:
When large asexual populations adapt, competition between simultaneously segregating mutations slows the rate of adaptation and restricts the set of mutations that eventually fix. This phenomenon of interference arises from competition between mutations of different strengths as well as competition between mutations that arise on different fitness backgrounds.
If you understood the physics of Darwinian evolution, the answer is obvious, but you don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 4:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 5:02 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 9:11 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 43 of 2383 (898031)
09-17-2022 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by PaulK
09-17-2022 4:43 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Biological competition "disrupt" (slows) adaptation. This is a consequence of the first law of thermodynamics.
PaulK:
How do you achieve adaption in the absence of competition?

Diversification in populations is simply a matter of replication. That's because replication gives the chance for mutations to occur. A good experimental example of rapid adaptation in the presence of minimal competition (no fixation occurring) is the Kishony Mega-Plate experiment. The carrying capacity in this experiment allows for large enough populations to give a reasonable probability of an adaptive mutation occurring on one of its members. Lenski's small carrying capacity environment forces competition with fixation being necessary for the next adaptive mutation to occur. It takes energy to replicate and if you force different variants to compete for a limited amount of energy, this will limit the population size of the most fit variant. This slows the diversification (adaptation) of all variants in the given environment. Most or all of the less fit variants end up going extinct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2022 4:43 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2022 5:09 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1492
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 44 of 2383 (898032)
09-17-2022 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
09-17-2022 5:02 PM


Re: Video not available
Kleinman:
Why did the Lenski team say the following:
AZPaul3:
Don't care.

You should if you want to understand how biological evolution works. After all, this process causes the evolution of drug-resistant microbes and failed cancer treatments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 5:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 5:10 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 5:15 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
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