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Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Paulk, do you believe that tens of thousands of Egyptian
Soldiers drowned in up to six inches of water? Do you believe that the remains of all the soldiers, theirchariots, and horses vanished in ankle deep water and left no trace whatsoever? Do you believe that the few inches of water had theIsraelites boxed in? Why didn't the Israelites go around the small body ofwater? Why didn't the Egyptians go around the small body ofwater and head the Israelitesoff? I'll be waiting for your answers.
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Theodiric, when you say that it never happened, you are
placing yourself in a position in which you are asserting more than an opinion. You are stating what you consider to be a fact. Back this up. Or, simply admit that it is nothing more than themusing of someone who is intellectually lazy. One other option is to admit that it is only your opinionthat it never happened.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
There is no evidence for it. I can not prove a negative. Provide actual evidence and I will reconsider. Until then it is all myth.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Or, simply admit that it is nothing more than the
I have been on archaeological digs in the "holy land". I have studied and worked under the guidance of Anson Rainey and Ze'ev Herzog. I have 6 books on Egyptian history in my book case. 10 on the bible and its historicity.musing of someone who is intellectually lazy. Intellectually lazy? Demanding actual evidence is lazy? Back under your rock troll. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
You’ve already had answers to most of them. In the post you reply to, so you can’t honestly pretend that you haven’t.
And I’ll leave you to show that the Bitter Lakes were a “small body 0f water” that could be easily walked around - while under sustained attack.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I did a bit of detective work. Have you ever heard of Hershel Shanks? He wrote an article on your mentor, Ze'ev Herzog. Herzog's Attack on the Bible Unjustified Herzog was portrayed as a "Biblical Minimalist" and no doubt contributed to many of your assertions that evidence was lacking. Shanks seems to have another view. I told you there were two sides to every story!
I do respect your experience, however, and am in no position to question it. My only question is whether you share much of Herzog's views or whether you are open-minded enough to form your own opinions on whether the exodus happened (at least in some way, even if but a few families participated) and whether you too consider yourself a Biblical Minimalist or entertain the scholarly opinions of men like Hershel Shanks. Edited by Phat, .
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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"Although he had never formally studied the Bible or archaeology,"
He was spouting his religion, not the scholarship. The BAR is not a respected scholarly publication. No one in actual historical studies and archaeology ever gave a rat's ass about his opinion. Shanks did not "write an article" Herzog. It is a letter to the editor nothing more nothing less. It is a political screed without presenting any evidence of any kind to oppose Herzog's position. Scholarship and evidence have changed greatly in the 20+ years since Shanks wrote this(and in the 40 years since I have been to that part of the world) and while there has been no new evidence to support Shanks, there has been plenty to support Herzog. Your post shows the ridiculousness and stupidity of the evangelical right. You think everyone is heavily influenced and parrots what they have read and been told(like you). True scholars(I am just a pale imitation of one) take in everything they have learned and come to a rational, logic-based conclusion. That conclusion is a moving target as there is always more evidence.Herzog was not a mentor, but he was someone I did learn from. I mentioned him and Rainey solely to point out and refute the intellectually lazy comment from your coreligionist candle2. Searching names in google is not detective work. A good detective actually reads what they find and examines the relevance.What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Theodoric, stop acting dumb. Anybody who cares about
an issue will examine it from all angles. I allow the facts, the way that I interpret them, to shapemy beliefs. And stop pretending that we so-called "right wingChristians" are trying to FORCE you to think a certain way. I don't care how or what you think. And, you will not becensored or sent to your room for not believing the way that I do. This is a discussion board. It is where we exchange ideas. I have been presenting my evidence for the Red SeaCrossing and for Mount Sinai being in Saudi Arabia. You have presented nothing to show otherwise. Saying it never happened is simply a cop out for theintellectually lazy, such as yourself, Herzog, and Rainey.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
You have presented absolutely no evidence just assertions. You are not debating you are preaching. Present the evidence if it exists. If not, move on.
Strop being a troll.What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Theodoric, I have presented evidence, and lots of it.
How did the coral encrusted chariot wheels, includingthe golden chariot wheel, chariot axles, etc..., which fit the ones in use by Egypt during the time of Moses, come to be in the exact location where Moses parted the Red Sea? Numerous individuals, both male and female, haveprovided photographic evidence of this. Why is the top of Jabal al Lawz black, as thoughblackened with fire and heat? When turned over the rocks are brown-the same color as the other mountain peaks? The top of Mt. Sinai is evidence that God was indeedover the mountain for an extended period of time. Could there be another reason for this phenomenon?Perhaps, but I highly doubt it. At least, it is evidence for Moses being there. There are two altars at this mountain. One fits thedescription of Moses' altar. The other one could have been built for the golden calf. Does this prove they are the ones described in Exodus?No. But at the very least, they are evidence for them being there. The petroglyphs of bulls on the rocks are not, excuse thepun, rock solid evidence of the Israelites being there, bit it is evidence that they could have been there. The ancient cemetery close to the mountain is largeenough to contain 3000 graves (the number of deaths reported by Exodus. This does not prove that the cemetery contain the 3000dead Israelites, but it is evidence. The cave on Jabal al Lawz might or might not have beenthe cave that Elijah stayed in, but it is evidence. The valley at Jabal al Lawz covers an expanse of 10,000acres. Does this prove that the Israelites sojourned there? No, but it is evidence that there was room enough to accommodate them. Psalm 77:19 "Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in thegreat waters, and thy footsteps are not known." How would people from over 3000 years ago know thatthere was a natural crossing path under the sea between Nuweiba and SA? The path is composed of sand. There is no mud in whichto bog them down. Does this prove they crossed there? No, but it is strongevidence that David was aware of this thirty centuries ago. There is much more evidence for Moses and the crossingof the Red Sea than there is that life began by a complex chemical reaction-which scientists cannot duplicate today. You are going to believe what you believe, evidence or not.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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You have not presented evidence. You have asserted. Evidence is not the random screed of someone on the internet. It is showing the research and the data that supports your assertion. It is not up to us to try to find something that supports you or contradicts you.
Present the evidence or move along to someplace where evidence-free assertions are acceptable discourse. Hitchens said it best What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. ABENone of your assertions are true. To start there are no coral-encrusted chariot wheels. There is no golden chariot wheel. Only a moron would make a chariot wheel out of gold. It would lose its shape in hours. A golden chariot wheel would be in a museum not in the sea. Why have no legitimate historians or archaeologists presented this evidence? Why are you such a troll? Edited by Theodoric, : Had to go there. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5
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You’ve provided rather less evidence than you claim.
quote: We don’t know that the coral structures contain chariot wheels, and the reported presence of iron is against it. The “gold chariot wheel” - which does not look much like a genuine Egyptian chariot wheel, is probably a small brass hand wheel planted at the site by Ron Wyatt. And the claim that the site is “where Moses parted the Red Sea” is almost certainly false. Indeed, since the supposed chariot remains are the main evidence for that claim it’s circular. And “the exact ones in use at the time of Moses” is only true if you’re prepared to accept the absurd rewrite of Egyptian history offered by the Wyatt camp. Since I am not prepared to believe that Moses was two different people (or any of the other nonsense invented by Wyatt and his supporters) that’s really a non-starter.
quote: It’s the natural colour of the rock. So not evidence for your claims at all.
quote: Not true. The first “altar” isn’t an altar, it’s just some walls presumed to be associated with an altar.
quote: It’s insignificant as evidence, the more so since there are a lot of petroglyphs - at that site and others - and only a very few of cattle.
quote: I guess if you’re desperate then you have to clutch at straws, but the size of the cemetery is hardly significant evidence - it’s not worth mentioning. The cave and the size of the valley are likewise too insignificant.
quote: Where does Psalm 77 say that it is about Nuweiba? And doesn’t the fact that there is no “natural crossing path” rather rule out any knowledge? Just admit that Ron Wyatt screwed up with the satellite data. Really if this is the best you have, you have nothing. You should have taken the time to research the issues. To look at all sides. Instead of gullibly falling for this nonsense.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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candle2 writes:
By your logic, it would be intellectually lazy to say that Star Wars never happened. Saying it never happened is simply a cop out for theintellectually lazy, such as yourself, Herzog, and Rainey. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Paulk, more evidence that Moses the Red Sea at
Nuweiba Beach. Numbers 33: 7-8 "And they removed from Etham, andturned unto Pi-Hahiroth, which is before (facing) Ba-al-Zephon: and they camped before (facing) Migdol. And they departed from before Pi-Hahiroth (now they arefacing away from Pi-Hahiroth, and moving towards Baal- Zephon, on the SA side of the Sea) and passed through the midst of the Sea. Migdol refers to a tower; a lookout; a fort; or a vantagepoint in the foothills of the wadi watir that leads to Nuweiba Beach. Egyptian sources describe there being such a vantagepoint (fortress) on the Egyptian's north-east border. Nuweiba Beach / Pi-Hahiroth is also located on theNorth-East border. Pi-Hahiroth comes from "Peh" meaning mouth. And"Chowr" meaning cavity, gorges, cave, and hole. Pi-Hahiroth simply means "Mouth of the gorges." George's refers to a narrow valley between hills ormountains, typically with steep rocky walls, and oftentimes with a stream running through. This fits perfectly with being on Nuweiba Beach andlooking up through the Wadi watir. Baal was linked to a midianite site of worship to the godBaal of Zephon, in present day SA, directly across from Nuweiba, about four miles from the Red Sea at Saraf al-Bal. Ball was a supposedly powerful god of the Canaanitesand SA. Baal was not the God of the Egyotians.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Given the complete unsuitability of the crossing you are going to need much better evidence than you have offered so far. And which Moses was it? Tuthosis or Senmut?
quote: Why do you think it doesn’t mean Migdol?
Wikipedia
Migdol is east of the Dwelling of the Lion,[5] which has been located at Tell el-Borg,[6] near the north coast of the Sinai Peninsula and the estuary of the Ballah Lakes.
quote: It isn’t on the border as such, is it? It’s a way down the coast on the Gulf of Aqaba. So without more evidence than a vague geographical reference that probably refers to somewhere else that isn’t even called Migdol it’s not exactly looking good for you.
quote: Shame that the text makes absolutely no reference to any such feature in the area. And a speculative translation - which is what you have - is hardly enough evidence.
quote: Don’t forget that there were Canaanites living in Egypt. The suggestion that it refers to Arsinoe seems more plausible to me. So again, all very, very weak, and not nearly enough to deal with the fact that the crossing would be very difficult. Ron Wyatt thought it was only 300’ deep the whole way across - that’s the “land bridge”. Turned out he just didn’t understand the data.
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