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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 1036 of 1147 (905279)
01-21-2023 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1035 by Phat
01-21-2023 3:50 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
I will again go with what Kreeft says. God created the possibility of evil. Thus also the possibility of suffering. Suffering is inevitable to some degree in the realm we live in.
You're not thinking, put your dogma aside and just think.
Given that god has created a place that doesn't require suffering, why did god create suffering here?
Some suffering is unavoidable.
Given that heaven exists and doesn't have suffering, that statement can not be true can it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1035 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 3:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by Phat, posted 01-22-2023 9:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1037 of 1147 (905284)
01-22-2023 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1036 by Tangle
01-21-2023 5:36 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Im not sure I agree with your attempt to frame the argument. You want a straight-up challenge(like Job) to Gods plan and purpose by humans who demand to know. If, however, you go with such a hypothetical, you must also include the corollary hypothetical of Gods response. His answer to the humans who demand to know. Can you imagine that?
Warning in advance: If we go down this rabbit trail, we have to also include our interpretation of Gods likely response. Agreed?
Additional food for thought:

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2023 5:36 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2023 10:32 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1040 by nwr, posted 01-22-2023 11:43 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 1038 of 1147 (905286)
01-22-2023 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1037 by Phat
01-22-2023 9:39 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
m not sure I agree with your attempt to frame the argument.
It's got nothing to do with agreement, it's a philosophical question which begs a response. If god is able to make a place without suffering for his creation, why has he chosen not to? Why do you think he did that Phat? Put aside all your learned apologetics and just think - is there a rational answer?
You want a straight-up challenge(like Job) to Gods plan and purpose by humans who demand to know. If, however, you go with such a hypothetical, you must also include the corollary hypothetical of Gods response. His answer to the humans who demand to know. Can you imagine that?
It's not a challenge to god, it's challenge to you. Why would a loving god make his creation suffer if he had an alternative?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by Phat, posted 01-22-2023 9:39 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1051 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 3:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 316
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1039 of 1147 (905287)
01-22-2023 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1033 by Phat
01-21-2023 1:08 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
Phat, God does not hate TE's or evolutionists. God does
not hate any humans.
TE's dismiss the first eleven chapters of Genesis. They
dismiss Noah and the global flood, as well as the origin
of sin and death, and more.
The Apostles wrote of these events. Jesus, himself,
spoke of Noah and the flood.
Do TE's think that Jesus and the Apostles were lying, or
making stuff up.
Do they think that Jesus was lying when he said that
"from the beginning God made them male and female?"
Theistic evolution is riddled with assumption and
falsehood . Why would God look favorably on it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 1:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by nwr, posted 01-22-2023 12:07 PM candle2 has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6231
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 1040 of 1147 (905288)
01-22-2023 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1037 by Phat
01-22-2023 9:39 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Im not sure I agree with your attempt to frame the argument.
I'm taking that as your way of conceding that you don't have a good answer.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by Phat, posted 01-22-2023 9:39 AM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6231
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 1041 of 1147 (905289)
01-22-2023 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1039 by candle2
01-22-2023 11:11 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
TE's dismiss the first eleven chapters of Genesis.
No, they don't. They take those chapters as theological but not historical.
Do TE's think that Jesus and the Apostles were lying, or
making stuff up.
Why do you assume that Jesus and the apostles were mindless mechanical robots? Why not assume that they were fully human, and made allusions to well known stories just as humans do today?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1039 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 11:11 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1042 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 1:14 PM nwr has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 316
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1042 of 1147 (905291)
01-22-2023 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1041 by nwr
01-22-2023 12:07 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
Nwr, I don't assume anything. I know beyond a shadow
of a doubt that they were humans.
However, they were filled with God's Holy Spirit. And they
lived with Jesus for over three years.
Jesus, as the Word, was the member of the God family--
which now consists of two members--that created Adam
and Eve.
Jesus is the same member that led the Israelites out
Of Egypt. The same that wrote the 10 Commandments
on stone. And, the same that said "keep there be light."
I believe Him with all my heart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1041 by nwr, posted 01-22-2023 12:07 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1050 by ringo, posted 01-22-2023 2:10 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 1052 by nwr, posted 01-22-2023 4:15 PM candle2 has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1043 of 1147 (905292)
01-22-2023 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1016 by Phat
01-20-2023 12:37 PM


Re: Good & Evil In Heaven (hypothetically)
Phat writes:
You didn't get the analogy. When in the "house" of someone whom you know and respect, you will temper your own evil/willful/rebellious tendencies.
I did get the analogy. My response was that grandma is as likely as anybody else to smoke pot, what with her glaucoma and all, and she is more likely than many others to share it with you, in cookies, for example. It has nothing to do with "evil" or "willfulness" or "rebelliousness". It has everything to do with grandmas being grandmas, especially grandmas of a certain generation.
It was a bad analogy.
Phat writes:
... if you even made the grade to be accepted in Heaven...
I haven't applied. I don't like the nhe neighborhood.
Phat writes:
you would not be/do evil in Heaven.
Smoking pot is not 'doing evil". Bad analogy.
Phat writes:
The apologetics that I have adapted says that God initially allowed free will in Heaven, Lucifer chose it ... blah... blah... blah....
We know, we know. YAWN.
You can't even apologize for "your" own apologetics, so stop wasting our time with your endless repetition.
Phat writes:
All that is to say that God foreknew what we were likely to do.
Which makes Him responsible.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1016 by Phat, posted 01-20-2023 12:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1044 of 1147 (905293)
01-22-2023 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1018 by Phat
01-20-2023 2:45 PM


Re: Apologetics whew!
Phat writes:
At least you cant readily google a rebuttal to mine.
Don't need to. I can rebut your apologetics off the top of my head any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Phat writes:
You have to actually make up your own response.
You have it backwards, as usual. being able to express it it my (our) own words is a thousand times better than having to google it. You google till the cows come home but you don't understand what you google.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1018 by Phat, posted 01-20-2023 2:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1045 of 1147 (905294)
01-22-2023 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1020 by Phat
01-21-2023 1:53 AM


Re: Good & Evil In Heaven (hypothetically)
Phat writes:
Lets go to scrip:
Psalms 24:1 writes:

ESV-The earth is the LORD’s and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein, for he has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the rivers.
Most commentaries suggest that though the earth was the Lords, the world was/is of Satan.
It's funny how you quote scripture actually saying flat out that "The earth is the LORD’s" and then you handwave it away saying that most commentaries disagree.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1020 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 1:53 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1047 by Theodoric, posted 01-22-2023 1:45 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 1046 of 1147 (905295)
01-22-2023 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1021 by Phat
01-21-2023 2:14 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
If a Landlord rents out apartments in an apartment house that he happens to own, he cannot legally have a say as to what specific behaviors his tenants can do.
He most certainly can. My lease specifies no smoking (tobacco and/or pot). Quiet must be maintained from 10 PM to 8 AM. The laundry room may only be used from 9 AM to 9 PM. I can't even put a nail in the wall to hang a picture. The landlord is legally entitled to make those rules for the greater good of the residents at large.
Phat writes:
IF, however, we are talking about the Landlords's personal home, he darn well can enforce any and every type of behavior within that environment.
Wrong again. The only thing he can enforce is occupancy. If he doesn't like a guest's behavior, he can ask the guest to leave. His right to remove the unwanted guest forcibly is also circumscribed.
Phat writes:
The earth is more like a rental property. Heaven is more like a personal and private residence.
Even if you were right about landlord/host rights, which you are not, you're just making that up. You're trying to reverse-engineer your theology to fit your misconceived notiions.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1021 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 2:14 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1047 of 1147 (905296)
01-22-2023 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1045 by ringo
01-22-2023 1:35 PM


Apologetics = making shit up
Phat proves every time he posts about it that Apologetics = making shit up as you go along.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by ringo, posted 01-22-2023 1:35 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1048 of 1147 (905297)
01-22-2023 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1029 by Phat
01-21-2023 12:02 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
That's like asking me why the sky isn't green
You should be able to answer that. It isn't a difficult question. You could google it.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1029 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 12:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1049 of 1147 (905298)
01-22-2023 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1032 by Phat
01-21-2023 1:03 PM


Re: From an Illiterate to an Elitist
Phat writes:
l...he does not believe a word of the apologetic narrative regarding the stories and parables of the holy scriptures.
And you don't understand a word of the apologetics that you worship.
Phat writes:
... do you have any idea (or concern) about what scares me?
Your own fantasies scare you. (Now I'll read on in your post and see if I was right.)
Phat writes:
What scares me is the vision of a one world social democratic order...where religion is publicly outlawed and secular humanist values are required (a mandatory requirement all in the name of protecting the people from religious radicals.)
Yup, your fantasy. All in your addled mind. Not a vestage of reality.
Phat writes:
I see it happening easily within 25 years.
Easy prediction, since you won't live long enough to be proven wrong.
Phat writes:
Is it ever possible for a two party system to see eye to eye?
I don't know why you're so enamored with a two-party system. Most of the mature democracies in the world have multiple parties. In Canada, we have five parties in Parliament.
A system limited to two parties is necessarily polarizing.
Phat writes:
conservative leaning Bible thumpers
You're not "conservative-leaning". You fell off the edge long ago.
And you're not a "Bible-thumper". You're a Bible-trasher.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1032 by Phat, posted 01-21-2023 1:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20810
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1050 of 1147 (905299)
01-22-2023 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1042 by candle2
01-22-2023 1:14 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2 writes:
I believe Him with all my heart.
And yet you don't give Him credit for thinking.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by candle2, posted 01-22-2023 1:14 PM candle2 has not replied

  
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