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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 815 of 1864 (901133)
11-05-2022 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 808 by Phat
11-04-2022 3:05 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
Phat writes:
If Jesus was Gods one and only son, He most certainly did exist.
Non sequitur. YOU did not exist until you BECAME your father's son. Even if you are your father's only son, you still did not exist until you were born.
Phat writes:
Otherwise, your cockamamy explanation requires God to go and find a woman (a human woman at that) to have sex with in order to even have a son!
That is exactly what happened, according to the Bible.
Phat writes:
We are talking Spirit. Not material lumber.
Irrelevant. We're talking about BECOMING. Nothing exists until it BECOMES what it becomes. If a spirit BECOMES flesh, it's the same as a tree BECOMING a house. The house did not exist until it BECAME a house.
Phat writes:
If you were God, your son could and would exist the moment he became a gleam in his father's eye...
Nonsense. You know better than that. A gleam in the eye is not a son.
Phat writes:
What's more, your son would do what you yourself could not do. Die.
Non sequitur. Besides which, the "ability" to die is irrelevant if He also has the ability to rise from the dead.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 3:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 817 of 1864 (901138)
11-05-2022 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 812 by Phat
11-05-2022 1:35 AM


Re: Feisty Ringo Demands Answers
Phat writes:
Well then why do you believe that in the beginning was the message?
I didn't say i believed that. I said the Bible says that.
Phat writes:
Do you believe that the message predated humans?
Of course. There are lots of other social species.
And you still haven't answered the question: Why would I do what a fictional character tells me to do?
Phat writes:
Because I am honest with Jesus. I don't expect Him to smite me for disobedience but I DO expect to feel conviction.
That's not being honest. Just calling him "Jesus" is not being honest, since you reject everything we know about him. You should call your made-up god something else. How about Barney Rubble?
Phat writes:
And to be fair, I know of very few people... believers or nonbelievers...who would go anywhere near giving everything up.
The disciples, the early church, the widow with two mites, the widow who fed Elisha. And here's a new one for you: When Elisha became Elijah's assistant, he killed his oxen and used the wood from his plow to cook them and he fed them to the people. (1 Kings 19:21)
And since you have no respect for the Bible, in history there were monastic people from various religions. And today there are the Hutterites; they own everything in common - and they are VERY prosperous.
Phat writes:
It's not fair for you to skate.
Of course it is. Why won't you THINK about the question for once? Why would I do what a fictional character tells me to do?
I don't do what Long John Silver says. I don't do what Bilbo Bagins says. i don't do what Oliver Twist says. Why would I? They are fictional characters. I don't believe they exist. Why would I do what they say? Answer that question.
Phat writes:
It's not fair for you to skate.
From now on, I'm just going to call you an idiot if you bring up that idiotic point.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 1:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 820 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 12:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 818 of 1864 (901139)
11-05-2022 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 814 by Phat
11-05-2022 11:52 AM


Re: Some good questions
Phat writes:
One would think that the ONLY thing that distinguished Him was the body...
And he didn't have the body until He was born. Case closed.
Phat writes:
And I refuse to look up any apologetic answers.
Good.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 819 of 1864 (901140)
11-05-2022 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by Phat
11-05-2022 11:57 AM


Re: Why Not?
Phat writes:
If Jesus wandered in one day from the desert and healed many people, teaching His disciples to do the same, why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe?
The two phrases in that sentence are unrelated. Try it this way: If Jesus was born in Bethlehem on Christmas Day and healed many people, teaching His disciples to do the same, why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe?
So the actual question is: Why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe?
That's my question to you.
Phat writes:
Why did He even allow skepticism?
Because skepticism is a good thing.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 822 of 1864 (901145)
11-05-2022 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 820 by Phat
11-05-2022 12:23 PM


Re: Feisty Ringo Demands Answers
Phat writes:
If you are so sure that Jesus is fictitious, that must make you infallible
Nope. I didn't say I was "so sure". It's just a logical conclusion, based on lack of evidence.
It's the same as your own lack of belief in unicorns. Are you "so sure" that they don't exist? Does your lack of belief make you infallible?
Your inability to read my posts does make you illiterate though.
Phat writes:
And for the record, a gleam in God's eye is instant Creation.
You're just parroting dogma again. Say something sensible.
Phat writes:
God either created Jesus (as JW's claim) before anything else...
There you go. Now you're on solid ground, following the JWs.
Phat writes:
... or more likely God had the gleam ever since He existed.
That kinda destroys the whole idea of the trinity, doesn't it? Why would God need a gleam in the eye if Jesus already existed?
Phat writes:
You cant expect God to follow the natural laws that humans do.
Sure I can. Watch me.
(Why would God violate His own laws?)
Phat writes:
When God imagines, He creates.
Dogma. Want a cracker?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 820 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 12:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 823 of 1864 (901148)
11-05-2022 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 821 by candle2
11-05-2022 12:27 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
candle2 writes:
Ringo, was this a hallucination by Paul, or did he lie?

1Corinthians 10:1-4
The Exodus is fiction.
candle2 writes:
The God that led the Israelites out of Egypt was Christ.
Nope. Christ wasn't born until centuries later. And the Exodus is fiction.
candle2 writes:
The Apostle Thomas understood this perfectly, which is
why he called Jesus "My Lord and my God." John 20:28.
What Thomas believed is irrelevant. The Romans believed that Jupiter and Mars were gods.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 821 by candle2, posted 11-05-2022 12:27 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by Phat, posted 11-07-2022 12:01 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 826 of 1864 (901255)
11-07-2022 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 824 by candle2
11-06-2022 7:01 AM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
candle2 writes:
Ringo, read Luke 24:25-27...
​What was Luke's issue?

Was he lying?
Was he deceived?
Was he doing mushrooms, which caused him to hallucinate?
Could be. Or he could have been writing fiction.
candle2 writes:
In other words, Jesus stated plainly that He pointed
out to all the OT prophets all the OT scriptures that
pertained to Him.
You might not have noticed but the phrase "so that the prophecy would be fulfilled" appears fairly often in the Gospels. It seems that either Jesus did some things so that prophecy's would SEEM to be fulfilled by Him (which doesn't count as fulfilled prophecy)... OR... the gospel writers inserted that phrase to artificially link the prophecies to Jesus (which doesn't count as fulfilled prophecy).
candle2 writes:
In order for Him to have been able to do that He would
have, by necessity, had pre-existence before His human
birth by Mary.
OR... He could have read the Torah.
candle2 writes:
The only way you can maintain that Christ was not the
Creator of all that exists is to deny, deny, deny.
OR... to read the Bible.
Everything you have posted is extremely weak.
candle2 writes:
And, that is not a good premise in which to reach a
reasonable conclusion.
You're as bad as Phat. Skepticism is by far the best way to reach a reasonable conclusion.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 824 by candle2, posted 11-06-2022 7:01 AM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 829 of 1864 (901266)
11-07-2022 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Phat
11-07-2022 12:01 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
Phat writes:
So say Satans Minions....
Read Job. Satan is God's minion.
Phat writes:
But not all agree.
Did the Exodus Never Happen? | Christianity Today
Hmm...? Your own quote says, "If you guys think I—or the Israeli archaeologists—am looking for the Israelite conquest archaeologically, you're wrong. We've given that up. We've given up the patriarchs."
I don't see how that disagrees with me.
Phat writes:
Note how the motives of the minions are exposed...
I note that motivations are irrelevant to the actual facts. And there are no actual facts supporting the Exodus.
Phat writes:
The accounts were now seen as fictional until proven factual, guilty until proven innocent
Yes. That is how science is done.
Phat writes:
I've always said that the jury is still out.
And you've nearly always been wrong about that. The jury could be in, the verdict announced, the perpetrator sentenced and executed - and you'd still say the jury was out.
Phat writes:
The article in CT concurs.
It doesn't though, does it? It expresses a hope that some day in the future, evidence might be found.
Phat writes:
Ringo likely thinks he knows it all anyway, and likely won't read the article.
The parts you quoted don't support you. Feel free to quote something that does.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Phat, posted 11-07-2022 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 881 of 1864 (902158)
11-18-2022 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 873 by candle2
11-17-2022 2:47 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
candle2 writes:
I have shown ample evidence for my assertion...
You have parroted Ron Wyatt's lies.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by candle2, posted 11-17-2022 2:47 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 898 of 1864 (902289)
11-21-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 893 by candle2
11-20-2022 2:04 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
candle2 writes:
Saying it never happened is simply a cop out for the
intellectually lazy, such as yourself, Herzog, and Rainey.
By your logic, it would be intellectually lazy to say that Star Wars never happened.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by candle2, posted 11-20-2022 2:04 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 910 of 1864 (902360)
11-22-2022 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 901 by candle2
11-21-2022 3:05 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
candle2 writes:
Paulk, you don't have the guts to put forth your case for
the crossing to be at the Sea of Reeds, or for Mount
Sinai to be in Egypt.
The possibilities are:
1. They crossed at Nuweiba.
2. They crossed somewhere else.
3. They never crossed at all.
If they never crossed at all - i.e. if the whole story is fiction, then your "evidence" is irrelevant. Fiction writers often describe places they have never been and those descriptions may coincidentally resemble actual places. That doesn't make the stories true.
Ron Wyatt reminds me of Constantine's mother, who went arount the Holy Land saying, "This must be part of the True Cross," and, "This must be where Jesus' tomb was." It's all just the fancies of a wild imagination.
Ron Wyatt's "evidence" has never been examined scientifically. Much of it has been supposedly "lost" and con not be confirmed. Yet the conclusions he made linger.
Only a True Believer would give any weight to his musings.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by candle2, posted 11-21-2022 3:05 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 911 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2022 11:19 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 912 by Taq, posted 11-22-2022 12:25 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 913 by candle2, posted 11-25-2022 1:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 916 of 1864 (902664)
11-26-2022 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 913 by candle2
11-25-2022 1:10 PM


Re: Any corroborating evidence?
candle2 writes:
Ringo, if someone does not believe that the Exodus
happened then they should just say so.
I did say so, in Message 823.
candle2 writes:
I was not debating whether the Exodus happened. I was
debating where it happened.
If it didn't happen, it didn't happen anywhere.
candle2 writes:
However, there is evidence that it did happen.
There really isn't. Ron Wyatt's "evidence" is fraudulent at worst and wishful thinking at best.. And any evidence that does exist does not point directly at the Exodus. (Just like evidence of A flood is not evidence of THE Flood.)
candle2 writes:
Ron Wyatt is not the reason that I came to believe that
that the crossing was at Nuweiba Beach.
That's hard to believe, since hardly anybody else considers the Nuweiba site plausible.
candle2 writes:
NASA's report of the "thin red line"...
Have you posted a link to that report yet? In any case, I could post a link to Dr. Seusss' report on talking cats. Doesn't make it true.
candle2 writes:
... in the early 90's...
I've been looking at this stuff since th 60's. I'll wait for you to catch up.
candle2 writes:
NASA, under pressure to be politically correct, deleted
a portion of the story. They also deleted the images of
the "thin red line."
Yeah. Thought so. Convenient, ain't it? That's the typical conspiracy-theorist line.
And a lot of Ron Wyatt's "evidence" conveniently "went missing" when he submitted it for scientific testing. Fell behind some professor's filing cabinet, no doubt.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 913 by candle2, posted 11-25-2022 1:10 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 952 of 1864 (903127)
12-04-2022 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 922 by candle2
11-29-2022 12:53 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2 writes:
Conserve means to conserve the ways of life that has
made America the envy of the world.
America is not the envy of the world. The best-known phrase in the English language is, "Yankee, go home."
Since Trump, America has been either the joke of the world or the horror of the world.
Candle2 writes:
Isaiah 5:20-21 "Woe unto them that call evil
good, and good evil; that put darkness for light,
and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet,
and sweet for bitter!

Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!"
Look in the mirror.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 922 by candle2, posted 11-29-2022 12:53 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 959 by candle2, posted 12-05-2022 8:06 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 962 of 1864 (903153)
12-05-2022 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 959 by candle2
12-05-2022 8:06 AM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2 writes:
Millions of people are dashing across our nation's borders
in a mad frenzy to escape America.
Trying to be sarcastic, eh?
In fact, Canada has been accepting refugees from the US as long as the US has existed: United Empire Loyalists, escaped slaves, Vietnam War resisters, etc. And during the Trump years, we had refugees crossing the border on foot, in winter, to get away from that bastard.
candle2 writes:
It is really sad to see all these Americans escape to
places such as Mexico; Honduras; Guatemala; and,
other choice destinations.
I have worked with people from El Salvador who escaped from Reagan's death squads. I have worked with people from Chile who escaped from the American-supported dictator Pinochet.
candle2 writes:
Immigrants are breaking down walls to get into Russia;
China; Iran; and South Korea, just to name a few.
Refugees from the US are losing fingers and toes from frostbite trying to get into Canada.
candle2 writes:
I was wrong, but your big giant brain has set me straight.
I could teach you a thing or two about sarcasm, too. Lesson One: Get your facts straight.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 959 by candle2, posted 12-05-2022 8:06 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 965 by candle2, posted 12-13-2022 8:09 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 963 of 1864 (903155)
12-05-2022 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 960 by Phat
12-05-2022 8:46 AM


Re: Non Protestant & Non religious success stories
Phat writes:
ringo lives in Canada. Ask him if Canada has any issues or restrictions on immigration.
We do.
And since you bring up your "conservative friend", here are some fun facts for you:
Wikipedia writes:
... in late 1926 Klan organizers came to Saskatchewan to preach its message of racial and religious hatred....
... their leaders claimed an overall membership of some 40,000, who had been attracted by the Klan's attacks on the “unassimilable” immigrants from central and southeastern Europe....
(That would be my ancestors, who came from Ukraine.)
... threatened groups friendly to the LIBERAL PARTY.
... both the Conservative and Progressive parties raised issues during the 1929 election campaign which drew upon the emotions aroused by the Klan and captured enough votes from the Anglo-Saxon and Protestant sector of the electorate to defeat the Liberals. The Klan convention in 1930 applauded the Anderson government's amendments to the School Act and its new immigration policy...
The Ku Klux Klan in Saskatchewan

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 960 by Phat, posted 12-05-2022 8:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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