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Member (Idle past 5908 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Non sequitur. YOU did not exist until you BECAME your father's son. Even if you are your father's only son, you still did not exist until you were born.
If Jesus was Gods one and only son, He most certainly did exist. Phat writes:
That is exactly what happened, according to the Bible.
Otherwise, your cockamamy explanation requires God to go and find a woman (a human woman at that) to have sex with in order to even have a son! Phat writes:
Irrelevant. We're talking about BECOMING. Nothing exists until it BECOMES what it becomes. If a spirit BECOMES flesh, it's the same as a tree BECOMING a house. The house did not exist until it BECAME a house.
We are talking Spirit. Not material lumber. Phat writes:
Nonsense. You know better than that. A gleam in the eye is not a son.
If you were God, your son could and would exist the moment he became a gleam in his father's eye... Phat writes:
Non sequitur. Besides which, the "ability" to die is irrelevant if He also has the ability to rise from the dead. What's more, your son would do what you yourself could not do. Die.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I didn't say i believed that. I said the Bible says that.
Well then why do you believe that in the beginning was the message? Phat writes:
Of course. There are lots of other social species. Do you believe that the message predated humans? And you still haven't answered the question: Why would I do what a fictional character tells me to do?
Phat writes:
That's not being honest. Just calling him "Jesus" is not being honest, since you reject everything we know about him. You should call your made-up god something else. How about Barney Rubble?
Because I am honest with Jesus. I don't expect Him to smite me for disobedience but I DO expect to feel conviction. Phat writes:
The disciples, the early church, the widow with two mites, the widow who fed Elisha. And here's a new one for you: When Elisha became Elijah's assistant, he killed his oxen and used the wood from his plow to cook them and he fed them to the people. (1 Kings 19:21) And to be fair, I know of very few people... believers or nonbelievers...who would go anywhere near giving everything up. And since you have no respect for the Bible, in history there were monastic people from various religions. And today there are the Hutterites; they own everything in common - and they are VERY prosperous.
Phat writes:
Of course it is. Why won't you THINK about the question for once? Why would I do what a fictional character tells me to do? It's not fair for you to skate. I don't do what Long John Silver says. I don't do what Bilbo Bagins says. i don't do what Oliver Twist says. Why would I? They are fictional characters. I don't believe they exist. Why would I do what they say? Answer that question.
Phat writes:
From now on, I'm just going to call you an idiot if you bring up that idiotic point. It's not fair for you to skate.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And he didn't have the body until He was born. Case closed.
One would think that the ONLY thing that distinguished Him was the body... Phat writes:
Good. And I refuse to look up any apologetic answers.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The two phrases in that sentence are unrelated. Try it this way: If Jesus was born in Bethlehem on Christmas Day and healed many people, teaching His disciples to do the same, why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe? If Jesus wandered in one day from the desert and healed many people, teaching His disciples to do the same, why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe? So the actual question is: Why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe? That's my question to you.
Phat writes:
Because skepticism is a good thing. Why did He even allow skepticism?Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nope. I didn't say I was "so sure". It's just a logical conclusion, based on lack of evidence. If you are so sure that Jesus is fictitious, that must make you infallible It's the same as your own lack of belief in unicorns. Are you "so sure" that they don't exist? Does your lack of belief make you infallible? Your inability to read my posts does make you illiterate though.
Phat writes:
You're just parroting dogma again. Say something sensible.
And for the record, a gleam in God's eye is instant Creation. Phat writes:
There you go. Now you're on solid ground, following the JWs.
God either created Jesus (as JW's claim) before anything else... Phat writes:
That kinda destroys the whole idea of the trinity, doesn't it? Why would God need a gleam in the eye if Jesus already existed?
... or more likely God had the gleam ever since He existed. Phat writes:
Sure I can. Watch me. You cant expect God to follow the natural laws that humans do. (Why would God violate His own laws?)
Phat writes:
Dogma. Want a cracker? When God imagines, He creates.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
The Exodus is fiction.
Ringo, was this a hallucination by Paul, or did he lie? 1Corinthians 10:1-4 candle2 writes:
Nope. Christ wasn't born until centuries later. And the Exodus is fiction.
The God that led the Israelites out of Egypt was Christ. candle2 writes:
What Thomas believed is irrelevant. The Romans believed that Jupiter and Mars were gods. The Apostle Thomas understood this perfectly, which iswhy he called Jesus "My Lord and my God." John 20:28. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
Could be. Or he could have been writing fiction.
Ringo, read Luke 24:25-27... What was Luke's issue? Was he lying? Was he deceived? Was he doing mushrooms, which caused him to hallucinate? candle2 writes:
You might not have noticed but the phrase "so that the prophecy would be fulfilled" appears fairly often in the Gospels. It seems that either Jesus did some things so that prophecy's would SEEM to be fulfilled by Him (which doesn't count as fulfilled prophecy)... OR... the gospel writers inserted that phrase to artificially link the prophecies to Jesus (which doesn't count as fulfilled prophecy).
In other words, Jesus stated plainly that He pointedout to all the OT prophets all the OT scriptures that pertained to Him. candle2 writes:
OR... He could have read the Torah.
In order for Him to have been able to do that He wouldhave, by necessity, had pre-existence before His human birth by Mary. candle2 writes:
OR... to read the Bible. The only way you can maintain that Christ was not theCreator of all that exists is to deny, deny, deny. Everything you have posted is extremely weak.
candle2 writes:
You're as bad as Phat. Skepticism is by far the best way to reach a reasonable conclusion. And, that is not a good premise in which to reach areasonable conclusion. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Read Job. Satan is God's minion.
So say Satans Minions.... Phat writes:
Hmm...? Your own quote says, "If you guys think I—or the Israeli archaeologists—am looking for the Israelite conquest archaeologically, you're wrong. We've given that up. We've given up the patriarchs." But not all agree.Did the Exodus Never Happen? | Christianity Today I don't see how that disagrees with me.
Phat writes:
I note that motivations are irrelevant to the actual facts. And there are no actual facts supporting the Exodus.
Note how the motives of the minions are exposed... Phat writes:
Yes. That is how science is done.
The accounts were now seen as fictional until proven factual, guilty until proven innocent Phat writes:
And you've nearly always been wrong about that. The jury could be in, the verdict announced, the perpetrator sentenced and executed - and you'd still say the jury was out.
I've always said that the jury is still out. Phat writes:
It doesn't though, does it? It expresses a hope that some day in the future, evidence might be found.
The article in CT concurs. Phat writes:
The parts you quoted don't support you. Feel free to quote something that does. Ringo likely thinks he knows it all anyway, and likely won't read the article.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
You have parroted Ron Wyatt's lies. I have shown ample evidence for my assertion...Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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candle2 writes:
By your logic, it would be intellectually lazy to say that Star Wars never happened. Saying it never happened is simply a cop out for theintellectually lazy, such as yourself, Herzog, and Rainey. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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candle2 writes:
The possibilities are: Paulk, you don't have the guts to put forth your case forthe crossing to be at the Sea of Reeds, or for Mount Sinai to be in Egypt. 1. They crossed at Nuweiba. 2. They crossed somewhere else. 3. They never crossed at all. If they never crossed at all - i.e. if the whole story is fiction, then your "evidence" is irrelevant. Fiction writers often describe places they have never been and those descriptions may coincidentally resemble actual places. That doesn't make the stories true. Ron Wyatt reminds me of Constantine's mother, who went arount the Holy Land saying, "This must be part of the True Cross," and, "This must be where Jesus' tomb was." It's all just the fancies of a wild imagination. Ron Wyatt's "evidence" has never been examined scientifically. Much of it has been supposedly "lost" and con not be confirmed. Yet the conclusions he made linger. Only a True Believer would give any weight to his musings. Edited by ringo, : Spelking. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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candle2 writes:
I did say so, in Message 823.
Ringo, if someone does not believe that the Exodushappened then they should just say so. candle2 writes:
If it didn't happen, it didn't happen anywhere.
I was not debating whether the Exodus happened. I wasdebating where it happened. candle2 writes:
There really isn't. Ron Wyatt's "evidence" is fraudulent at worst and wishful thinking at best.. And any evidence that does exist does not point directly at the Exodus. (Just like evidence of A flood is not evidence of THE Flood.)
However, there is evidence that it did happen. candle2 writes:
That's hard to believe, since hardly anybody else considers the Nuweiba site plausible.
Ron Wyatt is not the reason that I came to believe thatthat the crossing was at Nuweiba Beach. candle2 writes:
Have you posted a link to that report yet? In any case, I could post a link to Dr. Seusss' report on talking cats. Doesn't make it true.
NASA's report of the "thin red line"... candle2 writes:
I've been looking at this stuff since th 60's. I'll wait for you to catch up.
... in the early 90's... candle2 writes:
Yeah. Thought so. Convenient, ain't it? That's the typical conspiracy-theorist line. NASA, under pressure to be politically correct, deleteda portion of the story. They also deleted the images of the "thin red line." And a lot of Ron Wyatt's "evidence" conveniently "went missing" when he submitted it for scientific testing. Fell behind some professor's filing cabinet, no doubt.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
America is not the envy of the world. The best-known phrase in the English language is, "Yankee, go home." Conserve means to conserve the ways of life that hasmade America the envy of the world. Since Trump, America has been either the joke of the world or the horror of the world.
Candle2 writes:
Look in the mirror. Isaiah 5:20-21 "Woe unto them that call evilgood, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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candle2 writes:
Trying to be sarcastic, eh? Millions of people are dashing across our nation's bordersin a mad frenzy to escape America. In fact, Canada has been accepting refugees from the US as long as the US has existed: United Empire Loyalists, escaped slaves, Vietnam War resisters, etc. And during the Trump years, we had refugees crossing the border on foot, in winter, to get away from that bastard.
candle2 writes:
I have worked with people from El Salvador who escaped from Reagan's death squads. I have worked with people from Chile who escaped from the American-supported dictator Pinochet.
It is really sad to see all these Americans escape toplaces such as Mexico; Honduras; Guatemala; and, other choice destinations. candle2 writes:
Refugees from the US are losing fingers and toes from frostbite trying to get into Canada.
Immigrants are breaking down walls to get into Russia;China; Iran; and South Korea, just to name a few. candle2 writes:
I could teach you a thing or two about sarcasm, too. Lesson One: Get your facts straight. I was wrong, but your big giant brain has set me straight.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We do. ringo lives in Canada. Ask him if Canada has any issues or restrictions on immigration. And since you bring up your "conservative friend", here are some fun facts for you:
Wikipedia writes:
... in late 1926 Klan organizers came to Saskatchewan to preach its message of racial and religious hatred....... their leaders claimed an overall membership of some 40,000, who had been attracted by the Klan's attacks on the “unassimilable” immigrants from central and southeastern Europe....
(That would be my ancestors, who came from Ukraine.)
... threatened groups friendly to the LIBERAL PARTY.
... both the Conservative and Progressive parties raised issues during the 1929 election campaign which drew upon the emotions aroused by the Klan and captured enough votes from the Anglo-Saxon and Protestant sector of the electorate to defeat the Liberals. The Klan convention in 1930 applauded the Anderson government's amendments to the School Act and its new immigration policy...
The Ku Klux Klan in SaskatchewanCome all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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