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Author
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Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 395 of 2932 (899431)
10-13-2022 2:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 394 by Kleinman
10-13-2022 1:47 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes: I already have. Nope you have not presented anything but bullshit.
Kleinman writes: You report you to have one fossil that you claim is some kind of transition between a reptile and a bird. No I didn't. I said I have seen an Archaeopteryx fossil. And there are many more fossil species showing dinosaurs transitioning into birds and dinosaurs are no longer considered to be reptiles.
Kleinman writes: You should have hundreds or thousands of these transitional fossils because each DNA adaptational step takes 100's of millions or billions of replications. And you have been told that we do have hundreds of thousands of transitional fossils. You don't seem to understand the concept of ancestors and descendants and you should try to learn the basics of the evolutionary process. I know you're confused but Biology 101 would be a good place to start. If you were correct there should be thousands of citations to your papers. By now it should be obvious to even you that your calculations are erroneous and the do not accurately model the math or physics of life on this planet. You keep pulling "mutation rate of 1e-9, that's a billion replications" out of your ass, as if it is some kind of constant for all species, without a shred of evidence showing that it can be applied to any organisms other than bacteria. Considering the few citations you have on your "papers" I doubt that your calculations on 2 bacterial experiments are correct. On top of all your other errors you ignore all the other types of mutations other than single point replacements. Your math and physics fails to accurately model reality and the only way it could would be magic.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 394 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2022 1:47 PM | | Kleinman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 396 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2022 5:32 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 410 of 2932 (899540)
10-15-2022 11:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 408 by AZPaul3
10-15-2022 11:08 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman's equal.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 408 by AZPaul3, posted 10-15-2022 11:08 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 414 of 2932 (899546)
10-16-2022 12:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 409 by Kleinman
10-15-2022 11:49 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
If only these Darwinists could figure out the physics and mathematics of Darwinian evolution. And neither have you. Darwinian evolution is Natural Selection period. No mutations, no genetics. Trying to pass off your calculations from 2 simple bacterial experiments, that were conducted by researchers other than you, as the model for how modern life evolved is really bad science. Too bad evolution is too confusing for you.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 409 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 11:49 PM | | Kleinman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 419 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:50 AM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 427 of 2932 (899571)
10-16-2022 9:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 419 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 7:50 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment Why would I want to? Perhaps you can explain the patterns of endogenous retroviral insertions in human and chimp genomes.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 419 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:50 AM | | Kleinman has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 428 of 2932 (899573)
10-16-2022 10:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 422 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 7:54 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Oh, are you ashamed to be related to chimps, Kleiny? How embarrassing for you.
Tany is just frustrated that he doesn't have any experimental evidence to justify his belief that he is related to chimpanzees. And you have presented absolutely no experimental evidence on chimps or humans.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 422 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:54 AM | | Kleinman has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 429 of 2932 (899574)
10-16-2022 10:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 425 by Dredge
10-16-2022 9:22 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
I'm nowhere near Kleinman's equal And yet you both use the same playbook for your style of argument.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 425 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 9:22 AM | | Dredge has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 432 of 2932 (899580)
10-16-2022 10:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 431 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 10:29 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tany, your problem is that your playbook is 40 years old. Kleiny, your problem is you think magic explains the the genetic relationships of life on this planet.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 431 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 10:29 AM | | Kleinman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 433 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 11:06 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 445 of 2932 (899602)
10-16-2022 1:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 440 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 12:19 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment
Tanypteryx writes:
Why would I want to?
Because the Desai experiment is similiar to the Lenski experiment except using yeast, some of which are diploid sexual replicators. Don't you have any interest in descent with modification? Nope, I'm not interested in experiments with yeast or bacteria. The Desai and Lenski bacteria and yeast experiments don't tell me anything about descent with modification of Calopteryx aequabilis or Hetaerina americana. Kleinman writes: Tanypteryx writes:
Perhaps you can explain the patterns of endogenous retroviral insertions in human and chimp genomes.
Why, is that an example of descent with modification? I could speculate like the fossil tea-leaf readers and say that perhaps humans and chimps can be infected by the same retroviruses. I didn't say anything about descent with modification in Message 427. Apparently you are confused about the patterns of ERVs. Chimps and humans have some ERVs that are in identical points in both species' genomes even though the points endogenous retroviruses insert are random, so they must have been inherited from a common ancestor. Both genomes also have sets of ERVs that do not match, so they were obviously inserted after the two lineages separated. I am saying the matching ERVs in the 2 species are evidence of descent from a common ancestor, and the non-matching ERVs are evidence of descent with modification.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 440 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:19 PM | | Kleinman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 453 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 2:47 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 472 of 2932 (899641)
10-16-2022 10:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 453 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 2:47 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tany thinks that DNA evolution works differently for insects than it does for yeast. I know that the evolutionary process works differently in modern complex sexually reproducing organisms compared to bacteria and viruses and yeast, and so do you.
Do you want to explain to us how a retrovirus in a somatic cell gets into a gamete? By infecting a gamete in the first place Nimrod.
And are you claiming that these retroviruses somehow alter the reproductive fitness of either humans or chimpanzees? Nope, I didn't even imply that.
Do you know that humans and chimpanzees produce identical insulin? Yep, and unlike you I also know why, but so what? What does that have to do with ERVs? I knew you wouldn't be able to explain the pattern of endogenous retroviral insertions in the human and chimp genomes, or in all the other organisms that also have them, for the same reasons that you were unable to explain the nested hierarchy that all complex life fits into when you plot ERVs, or genomes or morphological relationships.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 453 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 2:47 PM | | Kleinman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 473 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 11:44 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 474 of 2932 (899646)
10-16-2022 11:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 413 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 12:09 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
I was starting to think you had left the building as well. Nope, I just had to go on a road trip to Utah. I'm here now, so I can pop in occasionally when I have time. It does seem like continued argument with you is pointless. You are just another creationist abusing science. Your conclusions and knowledge of evolution are flawed and no matter how much insist you are correct you seem to have convinced no one. Your work has been ignored by science. Everyone already knows that multiple therapies or pesticides work better than shingle ones, and why, so stop acting like you invented it.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 413 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:09 AM | | Kleinman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 476 by nwr, posted 10-17-2022 12:15 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied | | | Message 477 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 8:21 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 475 of 2932 (899647)
10-16-2022 11:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 473 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 11:44 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
I thought you said these were infectious retroviruses, not endogenous retroviruses Then you thought wrong. So you still can't explain the pattern as I said.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 473 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 11:44 PM | | Kleinman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 478 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 8:23 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 572 of 2932 (899821)
10-19-2022 6:48 PM
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Endogenous Retrovirus Wikipedia Article
I found a lot of information about ERVs in this Wikipedia: Endogenous Retrovirus article.
quote:
Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are endogenous viral elements in the genome that closely resemble and can be derived from retroviruses. They are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates, and they comprise up to 5–8% of the human genome (lower estimates of ~1%)
ERVs are a vertically inherited proviral sequence and a subclass of a type of gene called a transposon, which can normally be packaged and moved within the genome to serve a vital role in gene expression and in regulation ERVs however lack most transposon functions, are typically not infectious and are often defective genomic remnants of the retroviral replication cycle. They are distinguished as germline provirus retroelements due to their integration and reverse-transcription into the nuclear genome of the host cell.
quote:
The replication cycle of a retrovirus entails the insertion ("integration") of a DNA copy of the viral genome into the nuclear genome of the host cell. Most retroviruses infect somatic cells, but occasional infection of germline cells (cells that produce eggs and sperm) can also occur. Rarely, retroviral integration may occur in a germline cell that goes on to develop into a viable organism. This organism will carry the inserted retroviral genome as an integral part of its own genome—an "endogenous" retrovirus (ERV) that may be inherited by its offspring as a novel allele. Many ERVs have persisted in the genome of their hosts for millions of years. However, most of these have acquired inactivating mutations during host DNA replication and are no longer capable of producing the virus. ERVs can also be partially excised from the genome by a process known as recombinational deletion, in which recombination between the identical sequences that flank newly integrated retroviruses results in deletion of the internal, protein-coding regions of the viral genome.
quote:
Human endogenous retroviruses (HERV) comprise a significant part of the human genome, with approximately 98,000 ERV elements and fragments making up 5–8%.According to a study published in 2005, no HERVs capable of replication had been identified; all appeared to be defective, containing major deletions or nonsense mutations (not true for HERV-K). This is because most HERVs are merely traces of original viruses, having first integrated millions of years ago. An analysis of HERV integrations is ongoing as part of the 100,000 Genomes Project. Human endogenous retroviruses were originally discovered when human genomic libraries were screened under low-stringency conditions using either probes from animal retroviruses or by using oligonucleotides with similarity to virus sequences.
Constructing phylogenies Because most HERVs have no function, are selectively neutral, and are very abundant in primate genomes, they easily serve as phylogenetic markers for linkage analysis. They can be exploited by comparing the integration site polymorphisms or the evolving, proviral, nucleotide sequences of orthologs. To estimate when integration occurred, researchers used distances from each phylogenetic tree to find the rate of molecular evolution at each particular locus. It is also useful that ERVs are rich in many species genomes (i.e. plants, insects, mollusks, fish, rodents, domestic pets, and livestock) because its application can be used to answer a variety of phylogenetic questions.
Designating the age of provirus and the time points of species separation events This is accomplished by comparing the different HERV from different evolutionary periods. For example, this study was done for different hominoids, which ranged from humans to apes and to monkeys. This is difficult to do with PERV because of the large diversity present
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 574 by Kleinman, posted 10-19-2022 8:01 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 626 of 2932 (899940)
10-21-2022 10:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 619 by Kleinman
10-21-2022 8:05 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Have you noticed that Taq and Tany have not argued that my math is wrong? Actually, that is bullshit. Taq and Tany both argued that your math is incorrect when you try to apply it to anything beyond the simplest lifeforms in 3 experiments and even there it is questionable to other math guys and apparently the people executing the experiments. And no, Tany is not going to bother saying anything more about ERVs, since you are unable to explain the patterns of ERVs seen in the genomes of modern humans and chimps. All those other questions have nothing to do with the patterns that appear in both species' genomes and are just deflections, AKA a Gish Gallop. If you can't understand the Wikipedia article about ERVs, tough. Your math is wrong and no I am not going to perform for you - your math is wrong...your math is wrong!!! And I don't know about Taq, but I suspect his reason for stopping is your style and lack of saying anything interesting. Your argument boils down to nothing but repeatedly mischaracterizing our arguments and endless repetitions of insults, so carry on.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 619 by Kleinman, posted 10-21-2022 8:05 AM | | Kleinman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 644 by Kleinman, posted 10-21-2022 6:14 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 627 of 2932 (899941)
10-21-2022 10:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 625 by dwise1
10-21-2022 10:19 AM
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Well, self-professed hyper-genius MrIntelligentDesign's "new ID" is so superior because its probability can be as high as five. That's five times higher than puny normal math's maximum probability of a mere "one". Rounding errors...He rounded Pi up and the speed of light down.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 625 by dwise1, posted 10-21-2022 10:19 AM | | dwise1 has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 640 of 2932 (899969)
10-21-2022 2:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 635 by nwr
10-21-2022 12:33 PM
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So God is an incompetent moron with respect to mathematics.
This is a great argument for atheism. Atheists know that God=0.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 635 by nwr, posted 10-21-2022 12:33 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 643 by dwise1, posted 10-21-2022 3:57 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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