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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 421 of 2926 (899565)
10-16-2022 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by vimesey
10-16-2022 2:32 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
I'm saying that descent with modification (DNA evolutionary adaptation) requires huge populations to operate even when considering a single selection pressure environment.
vimesey:
So according to your mathematical model, how many generations would it take for a population of, say, 100,000 leopards to change from having spots to no spots ?

You are assuming that the pattern of color can only vary by DNA evolution when recombination can have a very rapid effect on phenotype, including fur color. A better example of DNA evolution would be an albino leopard where a mutation in a recessive gene would lead to pigmentation absence. One could expect that mutation to occur in about 1/(mutation rate) replications of your leopard population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by vimesey, posted 10-16-2022 2:32 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 422 of 2926 (899566)
10-16-2022 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Dredge
10-16-2022 4:11 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:
A gross insult to Kleinman.
Don't take Tany too seriously. Tany is just frustrated that he doesn't have any experimental evidence to justify his belief that he is related to chimpanzees. The experimental evidence actually contradicts his beliefs so he figures if he acts like a chimpanzee and throws some poop around that it will make his belief system seem more real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 4:11 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 9:19 AM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 428 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 10:03 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 423 of 2926 (899567)
10-16-2022 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Porkncheese
10-16-2022 7:36 AM


Re: Science is full of pseudoscience
Porkncheese:
I went to university. I studied engineering. I know exactly what science is and what pseudoscience is.
Very few people do cos very few people did a degree in practical science
​
These are the main pseudoscience fields we see today
​
- Theory of evolution (debunked countless times from many angles)
- Big bang theory (recently debunked again, this time by the new JW telescope)
- Climate change theory (debunked by their own false predictions of sea level rising)
- Covid vaccine theory (debunked by data and now Pfizer themselves)
- Transgender theory (debunked as a mental illness and by biology that says there are only 2 genders)
​
A disgrace to modern science
Welcome to the discussion Porkncheese. The are a lot of strange things that are being called science these days. With regard to the theory of evolution, not everything is wrong in that theory. The flaw in that theory is in the concept of universal common descent. The mathematical reason for this flaw is that the multiplication rule of probabilities applies to biological evolution, specifically DNA adaptive evolution.
The treatment of someone with gender confusion with surgery is analogous to treating someone with depression with a lobotomy.
And the problem with this covid vaccination episode is the sloppy job of creating ineffective vaccines with incomplete testing, in an environment of fear caused by politicians and pharmaceutical companies for their own gains and very poor expert advice on the purpose and the way vaccines work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Porkncheese, posted 10-16-2022 7:36 AM Porkncheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 12:11 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 424 of 2926 (899568)
10-16-2022 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 7:54 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
The experimental evidence actually contradicts his beliefs so he figures if he acts like a chimpanzee and throws some poop around that it will make his belief system seem more real.
That's a bit different, I suppose - Darwinists usually throw bullshit around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:54 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 425 of 2926 (899569)
10-16-2022 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Tanypteryx
10-15-2022 11:51 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tanypteryx writes:
Kleinman's equal.
You must be joking. I'm nowhere near Kleinman's equal - he's much, much smarter than I am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-15-2022 11:51 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 10:06 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 426 of 2926 (899570)
10-16-2022 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by Kleinman
10-15-2022 11:49 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Homer Simpson makes more sense than your average Darwinist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 11:49 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 10:13 AM Dredge has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 427 of 2926 (899571)
10-16-2022 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 7:50 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment
Why would I want to?
Perhaps you can explain the patterns of endogenous retroviral insertions in human and chimp genomes.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:50 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 11:53 AM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 440 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:19 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 428 of 2926 (899573)
10-16-2022 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 7:54 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Oh, are you ashamed to be related to chimps, Kleiny? How embarrassing for you.
Tany is just frustrated that he doesn't have any experimental evidence to justify his belief that he is related to chimpanzees.
And you have presented absolutely no experimental evidence on chimps or humans.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 7:54 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 429 of 2926 (899574)
10-16-2022 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by Dredge
10-16-2022 9:22 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
I'm nowhere near Kleinman's equal
And yet you both use the same playbook for your style of argument.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 9:22 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 10:29 AM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 436 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 11:57 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 430 of 2926 (899576)
10-16-2022 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 426 by Dredge
10-16-2022 9:25 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
The experimental evidence actually contradicts his beliefs so he figures if he acts like a chimpanzee and throws some poop around that it will make his belief system seem more real.
Dredge:
That's a bit different, I suppose - Darwinists usually throw bullshit around.

Most biologists have no idea what Darwinian Evolution is. In fact, most people don't understand what Darwinian Evolution is. In a sense, I would consider myself a Darwinist because I think that Darwin gives is a correct qualitative understanding of biological evolution. But I also consider myself a Creationist because I know how to quantify (do the mathematics) of Darwinian Evolution. I wrote a short paper that is easy to understand and explains the physics of Darwinian Evolution.
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution
Take a look at that paper and tell me what you think.
Tanypteryx:
Kleinman's equal.
Dredge:
You must be joking. I'm nowhere near Kleinman's equal - he's much, much smarter than I am.

Don't underestimate yourself. I happen to know something about biological evolution because I have a professional and spiritual interest in the subject. My professional interest is that I have had to deal many times with drug-resistant infections in my medical practice. My spiritual interest is because I happen to believe in the Bible and claims about evolution appear to show the Bible is wrong. My training and experience in engineering have given me the scientific tools to investigate this phenomenon in a way biologists are not trained. It wasn't my plan to do this when I decided to study medicine but Proverbs 16:9 tells this story for my life. God gives us all gifts. Try to know what these gifts are and exercise them for His purposes.
Dredge:
Homer Simpson makes more sense than your average Darwinist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 9:25 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 12:58 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 431 of 2926 (899577)
10-16-2022 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 429 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 10:06 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:
I'm nowhere near Kleinman's equal
Tanypteryx:
And yet you both use the same playbook for your style of argument.

Tany, your problem is that your playbook is 40 years old. We're now in the era of DNA sequencing. Why don't you send a sample of your DNA and a chimp's DNA to ancestry.com and see if you are related?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 10:06 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 10:50 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 434 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 11:37 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 432 of 2926 (899580)
10-16-2022 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 10:29 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tany, your problem is that your playbook is 40 years old.
Kleiny, your problem is you think magic explains the the genetic relationships of life on this planet.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 10:29 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 11:06 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 433 of 2926 (899582)
10-16-2022 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 10:50 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Tany, your problem is that your playbook is 40 years old.
Tanypteryx:
Kleiny, your problem is you think magic explains the the genetic relationships of life on this planet.

Don't be silly Tany, physics, and mathematics isn't magic. These are the tools that scientists use to explain the phenomena that surround us. You should learn something about these subjects. It isn't that hard, it just requires some study and practice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 10:50 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 434 of 2926 (899585)
10-16-2022 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 10:29 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Why don't you send a sample of your DNA and a chimp's DNA to ancestry.com and see if you are related?
Great idea. The results would be very interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 10:29 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 11:57 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 435 of 2926 (899586)
10-16-2022 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 9:53 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tanypteryx writes:
Perhaps you can explain the patterns of endogenous retroviral insertions in human and chimp genomes.
It seems to me that the science of genetics is still in its infancy. Don't be surprised to find that in 50 years time, geneticists will have a very different understanding of ERVs than they do now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 9:53 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
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