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Author
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Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: 09-06-2016
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Message 631 of 2932 (899952)
10-21-2022 12:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 625 by dwise1
10-21-2022 10:19 AM
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dwise1 writes: Well, self-professed hyper-genius MrIntelligentDesign's "new ID" is so superior because its probability can be as high as five. That's five times higher than puny normal math's maximum probability of a mere "one".
Wow. That is truly amazing.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 625 by dwise1, posted 10-21-2022 10:19 AM | | dwise1 has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 632 of 2932 (899954)
10-21-2022 12:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 612 by Dredge
10-21-2022 2:48 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes: A statistical impossibility is a probability that is so low as to not be worthy of mentioning.
And in the example you gave, that does not apply. It certainly IS possible that I can win any lottery draw if I have a ticket. I have a chance to win ANY draw. Therefore, if is POSSIBLE that I could win EVERY draw, a thousand in a row.
Dredge writes: Sometimes it is quoted as 10−5010−50...
What does that mean?
Dredge writes: ... although the cutoff is inherently arbitrary.
Yes, the cutoff depends on the context - and in your example, it does NOT apply.
Dredge writes: Although not truly impossible...
Bingo.
Dredge writes: ... the probability is low enough so as to not bear mention in a rational, reasonable argument.
Who are you to decide what is worth considering?
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 612 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 2:48 AM | | Dredge has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 633 of 2932 (899957)
10-21-2022 12:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 615 by Dredge
10-21-2022 3:16 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes: With all due respect, explaining how P (natural abiogenesis) < 0 is arrived at mathematically would be lost on you ... for the simple (no pun intended) reason that no atheist can understand the mathematics of God.
So you admit that it's only "the mathematics of God" that you're using and not real mathematics. And by real mathematics, I mean mathematics that we all (including you), use every day for useful purposes. Real mathematics keeps track of how much money you have and how much you owe. Real mathematics got us to the moon (and back, which is nice). The computer that you're looking at right now uses real mathematics. Real mathematics has served us pretty well.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 615 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 3:16 AM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 639 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 1:42 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 634 of 2932 (899958)
10-21-2022 12:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 619 by Kleinman
10-21-2022 8:05 AM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes: Is Dredge now supposed to explain to you the multiplication rule for computing the joint probability of random events?
He's supposed to explain his claim that probability can be less than zero and greater than one. Do you agree with him or not?
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 619 by Kleinman, posted 10-21-2022 8:05 AM | | Kleinman has not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 635 of 2932 (899959)
10-21-2022 12:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 629 by Dredge
10-21-2022 11:34 AM
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P (natural abiogenesis) < 0, but P (supernatural abiogenesis) > 1. But as I told you before, you can't understand the mathematics of God bcoz you're an atheist. Your natural laws and maths don't apply to the supernatural. So God is an incompetent moron with respect to mathematics. This is a great argument for atheism.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 629 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 11:34 AM | | Dredge has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 636 of 2932 (899960)
10-21-2022 12:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 621 by Kleinman
10-21-2022 8:18 AM
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Kleinman writes: Not everyone on this forum has knowledge of introductory probability theory let alone experts on the subject.
Dredge has claimed that probability can be less than zero and greater than one. Do you agree with him or not? Your answer will go a long way toward demonstrating that YOU have knowledge of introductory probability theory.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 621 by Kleinman, posted 10-21-2022 8:18 AM | | Kleinman has not replied |
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: 09-06-2016
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Message 637 of 2932 (899964)
10-21-2022 1:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 632 by ringo
10-21-2022 12:19 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes: Sometimes it is quoted as 10−5010−50...
ringo writes: What does that mean?
Sorry about the typo. It means 10-50 ... 10^-50 ... 1/10⁵⁰
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 632 by ringo, posted 10-21-2022 12:19 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: 09-06-2016
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Message 638 of 2932 (899965)
10-21-2022 1:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 635 by nwr
10-21-2022 12:33 PM
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Dredge writes: P (natural abiogenesis) < 0, but P (supernatural abiogenesis) > 1. But as I told you before, you can't understand the mathematics of God bcoz you're an atheist. Your natural laws and maths don't apply to the supernatural.
nwr writes: So God is an incompetent moron with respect to mathematics.
You mock what you can't understand.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 635 by nwr, posted 10-21-2022 12:33 PM | | nwr has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 641 by nwr, posted 10-21-2022 2:55 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: 09-06-2016
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Message 639 of 2932 (899967)
10-21-2022 1:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 633 by ringo
10-21-2022 12:26 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
ringo writes: So you admit that it's only "the mathematics of God" that you're using and not real mathematics.
Correct. You have no hope of understanding the mathematics of God coz you're an atheist.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 633 by ringo, posted 10-21-2022 12:26 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 680 by ringo, posted 10-22-2022 12:16 PM | | Dredge has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4452 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.5
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Message 640 of 2932 (899969)
10-21-2022 2:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 635 by nwr
10-21-2022 12:33 PM
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So God is an incompetent moron with respect to mathematics.
This is a great argument for atheism. Atheists know that God=0.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 635 by nwr, posted 10-21-2022 12:33 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 643 by dwise1, posted 10-21-2022 3:57 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 641 of 2932 (899972)
10-21-2022 2:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 638 by Dredge
10-21-2022 1:38 PM
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You mock what you can't understand. However, you are the one who does not understand.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 638 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 1:38 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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dwise1
Member Posts: 5952 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 5.7
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Message 642 of 2932 (899973)
10-21-2022 3:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 637 by Dredge
10-21-2022 1:35 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Sorry about the typo. It means 10-50 ... 10^-50 ... 1/10⁵⁰ Why don't you just simply use the HTML superscript tags: <SUP> </SUP> ? Thus 10 to the negative fiftieth power would be renderer as 10 -50. Just that quick, just that easy. Use peak mode to see the tags in action. There's a corresponding pair of HTML subscript tags using SUB instead of SUP. For example, H 2O, CO 2, C 6H 12O 6.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 637 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 1:35 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 652 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 11:18 PM | | dwise1 has not replied |
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dwise1
Member Posts: 5952 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 5.7
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Atheists know that God=0. Actually, it's ID that proves that. ID wants to force science to include God and other such supernatural things. So, let's take a scientific function, f(x,y,z), and add onto it a "God term" God to get a new ID function, g(x,y,z), such that:
g(x,y,z) = f(x,y,z) + God
Now apply both functions to the same real world situation, r, such that:
rf = f(x,y,z)
rg = g(x,y,z)
What we find is that there is no difference between the outcomes of that same real world situation using either of the two functions; ie:
rg = rf
So,
g(x,y,z) = f(x,y,z)
f(x,y,z) + God = f(x,y,z)
Subtracting function f() from both sides:
God = 0
Therefore God = zero. Proven by applying ID.
QED
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 640 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-21-2022 2:09 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: 10-06-2016
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Have you noticed that Taq and Tany have not argued that my math is wrong?
Tanypteryx:
Actually, that is bullshit. Taq and Tany both argued that your math is incorrect when you try to apply it to anything beyond the simplest lifeforms in 3 experiments and even there it is questionable to other math guys and apparently the people executing the experiments.
Why do you think Taq tried to argue recombination to explain the evolution of humans and chimps? He knows my math is correct. And you have no basis in thinking that DNA evolution works any different in viruses, bacteria, yeasts, or complex, multicellular, sexually reproducing organisms. The empirical data is out there with weeds and herbicides and insects and pesticides. And the math I presented predicted the behavior of the Kishony experiment before he performed it and Kishony knows it, and Lenski knows that I've done the math that predicts the behavior of his experiment and I explained to him why biological competition slows adaptation. Ask them whether they think the math is right or wrong.
Tanypteryx:
And no, Tany is not going to bother saying anything more about ERVs, since you are unable to explain the patterns of ERVs seen in the genomes of modern humans and chimps. All those other questions have nothing to do with the patterns that appear in both species' genomes and are just deflections, AKA a Gish Gallop. If you can't understand the Wikipedia article about ERVs, tough. Your math is wrong and no I am not going to perform for you - your math is wrong...your math is wrong!!!
This is the first smart thing you've said in this discussion. Bringing up the subject of ERVs only showed you haven't done your homework. And biologists and geneticists have a bad habit of seeing patterns where they don't exist. They do this by nonrandom sampling of their data. You don't even know what percentage of the chimp genome is ERVs. And the peer reviewers of my papers are experts in probability theory which you are not. They know my math is correct, that's why they published it. And I sincerely apologize for overwhelming you with the mathematical and experimental facts of life. Study these facts and perhaps you won't be so overwhelmed.
Tanypteryx:
And I don't know about Taq, but I suspect his reason for stopping is your style and lack of saying anything interesting. Your argument boils down to nothing but repeatedly mischaracterizing our arguments and endless repetitions of insults, so carry on.
Taq made a fundamental mathematical and physical error with his claim about multiple alleles fixing simultaneously. He was making this error in an effort to use recombination to justify the fitness gains humans have over chimps. He left the discussion rather than admit he was wrong. I expect you will do the same. You are wrong when you claim that DNA evolution works differently with viruses, bacteria and yeasts from complex, multicellular, sexually reproducing organisms. Why don't you ask Kishony, Lenski, and Desai what they think? The only difference is ploidy and recombination. If you want to claim ERVs make a difference, make your case, but please do your homework first Nimrod.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 626 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-21-2022 10:46 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 645 of 2932 (899983)
10-21-2022 6:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 644 by Kleinman
10-21-2022 6:14 PM
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Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman will now have his peers Kishony, Lenski, and Desai, explain, here at Evc, that DNA evolution works the same with viruses and bacteria as with multicellular sexually reproducing organisms. Can't wait to learn from them.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 644 by Kleinman, posted 10-21-2022 6:14 PM | | Kleinman has not replied |
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