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Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Tangle, you ask why would a living God make His creation
suffer if He had an alternative. This is a fair question, and one that I used to ask myself. The truth is that God wants us to experience this. Adam and Eve had no life experiences with which to assistthem when confronted with Satan and his powers of deception. There are two ways of life. One is the way of "get." Satan isthe father of this way. The other (God's way) is the way of "give." The way of "get" is exemplified by extreme self-centeredness.It involves greed; competition; and get ahead at all cost. Characteristics of "get" involve jealousy, pride, lack of empathy,and the belief that rules don't apply to them. God's way of "give" is centered on outgoing love and genuineconcern for others. It involves co-ooeration and sharing credit with all. The fruits of "give" is gentleness; joy; goodness; love;meekness; and, faith. Satan was placed on the earth with many angels under him.Their responsibility was to put the finishing touches to the created earth. Satan and his minion rebelled against God. The results was adestroyed earth, as well as much of the solar system. Who knows what portions of the galaxy and universe were affected. When God places someone in a position of power they remainin that position until a replacement is found. Adam was to replace Satan, but he failed to qualify. God was aware that Adam would fail long before itcame to fruition. This is why Christ clearly understood long before thefoundation of the earth that He would die for our sins. What humans experience under the rule of Satan and hisway of get is pain, misery and death. It can be extremely painful at times to be a human livingin a world governed by "get." But, it gives us what Adam and Eve didn't have whenconfronted by Satan. And, that is the knowledge of the heartache caused by this way of life. Look at all the wars that have bee the result of (not God)sin. Matthew tells us that a time is coming that we wouldcompletely destroy all life on earth if Christ did not come back and intervene. We will know beyond any doubt the results of livingunder Satan and his way of "get." The vast majority of Christians believe that the secondresurrection is when sinners will be sentenced to hell. But, this is far from the truth. The second resurrection isa resurrection to correction. The books of life are opened. This is the same as openingthe tree of life, or the water of life for all humans who have ever lived, with the exception of those in the first resurrection. There are some who devoted their lives to Satan and his causefor wealth, power, and fame who will be in the third resurrection when they will be sentenced to eternal death. Also, some are so evil and despicable that they will also beIn the third resurrection. In any event, those in the second resurrection (who areraised as flesh and blood human) will be told that Christ hàs paid their death penalty. What they do from that point forward determined their eternity. Christ will give each of us an opportunity to live life theway he intends for us. He will not have to say take my word for it that my wayis far better; we will have our former life to compare it with. Those who allow God's Holy Spirit to change them willBe turned to living Sons of God. Part of the God family. Those who do not change will then be destroyed for allof eternity. Since they were resurrected as flesh and blood they will be consumed. There is much, much more than this. This is simply acondensed version.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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However, they were filled with God's Holy Spirit. And they lived with Jesus for over three years. You seem to be suggesting that being filled with "God's Holy Spirit" turns people into mindless robotic zombies. Here's the real point. You are trying to argue that what they said shows that Adam and Eve were real people. It doesn't. People often talk about fictional characters without mentioning that they are fictional. Such talk is not evidence that Adam and Eve were real people. It is only evidence that their story was well known. There are many Christians, not just TEs, who take the early part of Genesis to be allegorical. That's a well respected view within Christianity. Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Nwr, you know that this isn't what i am suggesting.
It is the Spirit of a sound mind. It gives us strength to exert self-control over ourlives. The Holy Spirit has enabled me to overcome manyfaults and weaknesses during my life. I still have to guard against my desires. The Holy Spirit contains the very minds of Jesus andthe Father. A person who has never had the Holy Spirit dwell inthem is not one who should be offering suggestions about It. If you do not want to believe that Adam and Eve werereal people, then don't. The Holy Bible, as well as Jesus, says they werereal. And, I believe it completely. And, as I said before, the number of people whobelieve a certain way has nothing to do with whether something is true or not.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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candle writes: Tangle, you ask why would a living God make His creationsuffer if He had an alternative. The truth is that God wants us to experience this. Then he is evil.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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The Holy Bible, as well as Jesus, says they were real. False. That's an interpretation that you are reading into it.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Tangle, evil would be to create humans as mindless
robots that have no emotions or self determination. We humans, under the influence of Satan, cause eachother pain and suffering. God would rather us not smoke but He won't preventour hand from into our shit pocket for a cigarette. Not bearing false witness does not cause evil to happen. Not stealing doesn't cause evil things to happen. Not committing adultery/fornication doesn't causeunwanted pregnancies or divorces. To love thy neighbor as thyself does not cause wars orviolence against each other. Pain and suffering is not the result of following God'slaws but are the results of not following His laws. The same still holds true though. In order for us todecide which way of life we prefer we must experience both. God knows this. A few decades of pain and suffering doesn't compare toan eternity of true happiness and joy.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
candle writes: Tangle, evil would be to create humans as mindlessrobots that have no emotions or self determination. I'll ask you the same question I asked Phat who has so far been unable to answer me. If god is able to create a place where evil and suffering doesn't exist and freewill doesn't seem to be a stumbling block ie heaven, why has he made evil and suffering here? Please don't reply with dogma, I won't read it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Pain and suffering is not the result of following God's laws but are the results of not following His laws. Explain that to a baby in Africa, who loses their sight as a result of
Onchocerciasis
. In what way did that baby fail to follow your god's supposed laws, so as to result in a lifetime of lost sight and pain ?Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle, addressing Candle writes: What other way can one reply when God can be discussed no other way with you? Its easy to play the role of a rational human grappling with finding logic and reason in their faith. Ive found peace in my search. You have not. It is likely why I am a believer and you left the faith. The only difference is that you, ringo, and Theodoric lay the blame on God (or more precisely His followers.) I don't. If god is able to create a place where evil and suffering doesn't exist and freewill doesn't seem to be a stumbling block ie heaven, why has he made evil and suffering here? Please don't reply with dogma, I won't read it. To be fair, I don't blame socialists, humanists, or unbelievers either. In fact, I'd have to really think about where the blame lies. The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
cangle writes:
Pain and suffering is not the result of following God'slaws but are the results of not following His laws. vimesey writes: You have a valid point. Upon examining it, I would ask myself (and humanity in general) if we should take the blame for this babys agony. Explain that to a baby in Africa, who loses their sight as a result of Onchocerciasis . In what way did that baby fail to follow your god's supposed laws, so as to result in a lifetime of lost sight and pain ? You can blame God, and you can extrapolate that blame to Gods unobedient followers, but if so, I would add all of the unbelievers in that guilt paradigm as well. The fact is that one member of the human race is suffering. The question is whether or not the human race is responsible. The dilemma is what to do about it. Where are we falling short? The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
And that applies to you too. Holy Spirit or no Holy Spirit, nothing you believe and nothing you have said has anything to do with whether or not Adam and Eve were real. And, as I said before, the number of people whobelieve a certain way has nothing to do with whether something is true or not. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
Your definition of evil is wrong. Tangle, evil would be to create humans as mindlessrobots that have no emotions or self determination. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nonsense. Don't attribute characteristics to me that I have told you many times are false. Maybe God "would" be blamed IF he was real - but he isn't. The only difference is that you, ringo, and Theodoric lay the blame on God (or more precisely His followers.)Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why do you keep stating this "lack of evidence" argument as if it thus becomes a fact? You once argued that we havent looked everywhere yet. Perhaps you should reexamine your inner space rather than proclaiming your conclusions as the reality in everyone elses outer space.
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes:
With reason - rational thinking
What other way can one reply Its easy to play the role of a rational human grappling with finding logic and reason in their faith. Rather, it's easy to show how silly this Christian fantasy is.
Ive found peace in my search.
If you say so, but it doesn't look that way to me.
You have not.
Really? How do you work that out?
It is likely why I am a believer and you left the faith. The only difference is that you, ringo, and Theodoric lay the blame on God (or more precisely His followers.) I don't. ffs Phat how many times? If we don't believe in a god, how can we blame him for anything?
To be fair, I don't blame socialists, humanists, or unbelievers either. In fact, I'd have to really think about where the blame lies. Blame for what? The human condition? Life the universe and everything? You still haven't answered my question I notice.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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