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Author Topic:   How can we regulate guns ... ?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 29 of 955 (686422)
01-01-2013 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by ramoss
12-31-2012 11:34 PM


Re: Two Cautionary Tales of Gun Control
ramoss writes:
One little item that the wjs did not report is that crime stats using 'imitation guns' and bb guns are included in that. Care to break those out?
Also, increasing the number of gun laws will increase the number of gun crimes.
e.g.
If you made frisbees illegal, the number of frizbee crimes would increase dramatically.
quote:
Within a decade of the handgun ban and the confiscation of handguns from registered owners, crime with handguns had doubled...
...to 2.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ramoss, posted 12-31-2012 11:34 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 01-01-2013 10:58 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 75 of 955 (686482)
01-02-2013 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
01-01-2013 7:41 PM


Re: killing efficiency vs weapon of choice
jar writes:
In the US machine guns are already regulated and have not been used in any of the recent mass shootings.
Thank you for your support for gun legislation.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 01-01-2013 7:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 01-02-2013 8:27 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 78 of 955 (686490)
01-02-2013 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
01-02-2013 8:27 AM


Re: killing efficiency vs weapon of choice
jar writes:
I have never said that I oppose all gun regulation legislation.
Do you oppose an increase in gun legislation?
Do you support a decrease in gun legislation?
jar writes:
I have said that I do not consider guns to be a problem in the US.
7% of premature deaths in the US are caused by guns.
30,000 deaths and 75,000 injuries per year caused by guns - over one hundred thousand people hurt by guns each year.
But if you do not consider guns to be a problem, then so be it.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 01-02-2013 8:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 01-02-2013 10:36 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 80 of 955 (686493)
01-02-2013 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
01-02-2013 10:36 AM


Re: killing efficiency vs weapon of choice
Why reply if you have nothing to say?

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 01-02-2013 10:36 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 01-02-2013 10:57 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 82 of 955 (686503)
01-02-2013 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
01-02-2013 10:57 AM


Re: killing efficiency vs weapon of choice
jar writes:
I did have something to say.
You should have said it, then.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 01-02-2013 10:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 01-02-2013 11:24 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 87 of 955 (686519)
01-02-2013 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
01-02-2013 11:24 AM


Re: killing efficiency vs weapon of choice
jar writes:
I did
No you didn't.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 01-02-2013 11:24 AM jar has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 163 of 955 (686707)
01-03-2013 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Coyote
01-02-2013 8:32 PM


Re: My Ideas for Regulation
Coyote writes:
A real sweetie, eh?
If you read the original article, it is not quite how Faux News portray it.
But that should not be a surprise to anyone.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Coyote, posted 01-02-2013 8:32 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 194 of 955 (686886)
01-04-2013 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by crashfrog
01-04-2013 8:56 PM


Re: killing efficiency vs weapon of choice
Crashfrog writes:
"Efficiency" implies a ratio of some kind; you know, the way "gas efficiency" is about distance traveled per volume of gasoline consumed. I'm just wondering what the terms of your ratio are.
Let's compare guns to knives then:
Gunshot wounds result in a higher mortality rate than knife wounds.
Gunshot wounds can be made at a faster rate than knife wounds.
Gunshot wounds can be made at a larger range of distances than knife wounds.
Therefore guns are more efficient at killing people than knives.
Do you know of a weapon more efficient than guns?
(Obviously weapons like nuclear bombs are more efficient than guns, but I don't see anyone in this thread advocating their use.)
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2013 8:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2013 10:33 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 196 of 955 (686889)
01-04-2013 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by crashfrog
01-04-2013 10:33 PM


Re: killing efficiency vs weapon of choice
Crashfrog writes:
I don't follow the "therefore." Guns can only be fired a limited number of times before becoming completely ineffective;
Are guns unable to be reloaded?
Crashfrog writes:
Again, the critical word for me is "efficiency." I'm specifically looking for the ratio of one characteristic or measure to another that would allow me to distinguish two firearms on the basis of their "efficiency."
Sure - here are the characteristics and their ratios:
Gunshot wounds result in a higher mortality rate than knife wounds.
Gunshot wounds can be made at a faster rate than knife wounds.
Gunshot wounds can be made at a larger range of distances than knife wounds.
{abe} We are comparing guns to knives, so I am taking your request for me to "distinguish two firearms" as a typo.
Crashfrog writes:
How would I know? I still don't understand what you mean by "efficiency." Maybe a definition would help:
quote:
effective operation as measured by a comparison of production with cost (as in energy, time, and money) (2) : the ratio of the useful energy delivered by a dynamic system to the energy supplied to it
Try this:
Efficiency - Wikipedia
quote:
Efficiency in general describes the extent to which time, effort or cost is well used for the intended task or purpose. It is often used with the specific purpose of relaying the capability of a specific application of effort to produce a specific outcome effectively with a minimum amount or quantity of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort.
The capability of killing people is greater with guns than knives.
Guns are more efficient than knives at killing people.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2013 10:33 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2013 11:08 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 198 of 955 (686891)
01-04-2013 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by crashfrog
01-04-2013 11:08 PM


Re: killing efficiency vs weapon of choice
Crazyfrog writes:
Panda writes:
Crazyfrog writes:
Guns can only be fired a limited number of times before becoming completely ineffective
Are guns unable to be reloaded?
Do you have to reload a knife?
No.
Are guns unable to be reloaded?
Crazyfrog writes:
Those aren't ratios.
Yes they are.
One is greater than the other.
Crazyfrog writes:
Why are we comparing guns to knives?
Well....that is what the discussion was about.
Straggler listed different weapons:
"Well if I wanted to walk into a school and massacre a large number of people and I had the following choice of weapons which of the following would I be best served arming myself with in order to achieve my stated aim"
You asked for clarification on how those weapons are judged more (or less) efficient:
"I asked you to define your term "kill efficiency." ... I'm just wondering what the terms of your ratio are."
I selected 2 weapons to compare and listed how their efficiency was judged:
"Let's compare guns to knives then"
And you addressed that comparison:
"Guns can only be fired a limited number of times before becoming completely ineffective; a knife can do harm indefinitely."
I am unsure how you got lost in such a short number of messages.
Crazyfrog writes:
Efficiency isn't defined as "capability." It's defined as "capability per a minimum amount of "expense, waste, or unnecessary effort.
Ok...The capability of killing people per a minimum amount of unnecessary effort is greater with guns than knives.
Crazyfrog writes:
was "more dangerous than a knife" what Straggler meant? If so, why didn't he just say so?
What he said was synonymous to "more dangerous than a knife".
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2013 11:08 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2013 11:29 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 200 of 955 (686893)
01-04-2013 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by crashfrog
01-04-2013 11:29 PM


Re: killing efficiency vs weapon of choice
CrazyFrog writes:
That's not what "ratio" means.
Yes it is:
Ratio - definition of ratio by The Free Dictionary
quote:
1. Relation in degree or number between two similar things.
Crazyfrog writes:
Look, if someone would like to make an earnest effort to address an earnest question, I promise to give it due consideration. But giving Panda any further consideration at this point really would mean I was crazy.
And that is you ducking out of a losing position.
Crazyfrog writes:
A request for moderator attention will be forthcoming.
That is ok by me.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2013 11:29 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 212 of 955 (686920)
01-05-2013 11:12 AM


Gun show loop hole
quote:
The ATF analyzed more than 1,530 trafficking investigations over a two-and-a-half-year period and found gun shows to be the second leading source of illegally diverted guns in the nation...
Does everyone here agree that the gun show loop hole should be 'closed'?
And should that 'closure' extend to all private sales of guns?
(This has been done is several states, but for it to be effective it would need to be done nationally.)
Perhaps a system could be set up where a prospective gun purchaser could request a 'licence' (from the government) showing that they have passed a background check?
(This would be like the NICS but the 'burden of proof' is shifted from the vendor to the purchaser.)
This would remove the '3 day wait' which the current system requires (which makes buying a gun at a gun show impractical.
Continuing on from the ATF analysis:
quote:
...Straw purchasing was the most common channel in trafficking investigations.
Should straw purchasing guns also be made illegal?
(Again, this has already been done is several states.)
I see nothing in my suggestions that prevents the legal ownership of guns by legally permitted citizens - but maybe I have missed something.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2013 1:14 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied
 Message 215 by NoNukes, posted 01-05-2013 2:52 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 217 of 955 (686942)
01-05-2013 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by NoNukes
01-05-2013 2:52 PM


Re: Gun show loop hole
NN writes:
I highly doubt there is universal agreement on these things. Plenty of people think that the loop hole is the way things ought to be for all gun sales.
But what is their reasoning?
The only reasons I could find on the web were:
a) It is traditional - which is a fallacious argument.
b) It interferes with business - which is why I suggested allowing people to apply for their own background check.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by NoNukes, posted 01-05-2013 2:52 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by NoNukes, posted 01-05-2013 6:34 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 219 of 955 (686946)
01-05-2013 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by NoNukes
01-05-2013 6:34 PM


Re: Gun show loop hole
NN writes:
Their reasoning is that they want their guns on demand and they don't want to be denied.
So, if they had a licence (which entailed a background check) to purchase guns then their requirements would be met?
They could just wander to any gun seller, show their licence, and buy a gun.
As RAZD pointed out: "You need a valid drivers license to rent a vehicle" - but people have no trouble renting cars on demand.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by NoNukes, posted 01-05-2013 6:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by AZPaul3, posted 01-05-2013 7:40 PM Panda has replied
 Message 224 by xongsmith, posted 01-06-2013 1:45 AM Panda has replied
 Message 263 by NoNukes, posted 01-06-2013 5:23 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 222 of 955 (686951)
01-05-2013 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by AZPaul3
01-05-2013 7:40 PM


Re: Gun show loop hole
AZPaul writes:
The problem is that the government, at whatever level, cannot require a license for a citizen to practice their free speech rights, their religious rights or their due process rights. The Constitution, as interpreted by the one body in our system with the sole right to do so, makes guns an individual right. No license required.
I am not understanding how putting the responsibility of performing a background check on the buyer is a breach of their constitutional rights.
I am not even suggesting (as RAZD is above) that training is required to get this certificate ( - although it does sound like a good idea).
Currently, gun sellers are required to 'background check' gun buyers before they sell the guns (with the exception of gun shows and private sales) - but this doesn't appear to be in breach of any constitutional rights.
And certain members of society (e.g. criminals/the mentally ill) are not permitted to own guns - and that is not considered a breach of their constitution rights either.
Or are you saying that the reason that the government can insist on background checks in certain instances is because there are alternative options which don't require background checks?
Then is there any point to a background check if all criminals have to do is go to a gun show to circumvent the system?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by AZPaul3, posted 01-05-2013 7:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by xongsmith, posted 01-06-2013 1:34 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied
 Message 268 by AZPaul3, posted 01-06-2013 8:44 PM Panda has replied

  
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