Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 49 (9181 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: joebialek123
Post Volume: Total: 918,287 Year: 5,544/9,624 Month: 569/323 Week: 66/143 Day: 9/19 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How can we regulate guns ... ?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
(1)
Message 126 of 955 (686647)
01-02-2013 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by onifre
01-02-2013 2:45 PM


What some of the founders had to say about it:
James Madison
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained in arms, is the best most natural defense of a free country.
Patrick Henry:
The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
George Mason
Forty years ago, when the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British parliament was advised by an artful man, [Sir William Keith] who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people. That it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.
George Mason:
Who are the militia, if they be not the people of this country...? I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.
Samuel Adams
And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms
It is always dangerous to the liberties of the people to have an army stationed among them, over which they have no control ... The Militia is composed of free Citizens. There is therefore no danger of their making use of their Power to the destruction of their own Rights, or suffering others to invade them.
Alexander Hamilton:
The militia is a voluntary force not associated or under the control of the States except when called out; a permanent or long standing force would be entirely different in make-up and call.
Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.
Richard Henry Lee:
A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms...To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms...The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle.
Richard Henry Lee:
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."[3]

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by onifre, posted 01-02-2013 2:45 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Taq, posted 01-02-2013 5:44 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 130 by Rahvin, posted 01-02-2013 6:01 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 131 of 955 (686655)
01-02-2013 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Rahvin
01-02-2013 6:01 PM


Re: What some of the founders had to say about it:
I was responding to a mention of the founders' viewpoint, specifically something Madison said perhaps, you know, something that was in context.
But I've got to say that the attitude toward the founders here is maybe the scariest thing I've ever run across, a recipe for absolute ruin of the country. He who forgets history is condemned to repeat it. Oh well I've been expecting it for some time.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Rahvin, posted 01-02-2013 6:01 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Taq, posted 01-02-2013 6:15 PM Faith has replied
 Message 133 by Rahvin, posted 01-02-2013 6:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
(3)
Message 142 of 955 (686668)
01-02-2013 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Taq
01-02-2013 6:15 PM


Re: What some of the founders had to say about it:
The founders are NOT "just as fallible as we are" if by "we" you mean the posters on this forum who are a bunch of complete ignoramuses by comparison. The founders were steeped in history and their documents were meant to embody the wisdom learned from that history. We here are all a bunch of naive ignoramuses by comparison who have never learned a hundredth of the lessons of hstory they applied to their writings.
Yes they included METHODS for changing it, but your attitude is that nothing they did is of any value anyway so why not just ignore it altogether, why bother following their rules at all, we're all so much wiser than they were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Taq, posted 01-02-2013 6:15 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Rahvin, posted 01-02-2013 7:01 PM Faith has replied
 Message 166 by Taq, posted 01-03-2013 12:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 151 of 955 (686677)
01-02-2013 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Rahvin
01-02-2013 7:01 PM


Re: What some of the founders had to say about it:
Actually I do recognize that the main founders were not Christian, and I like a lot of what Jefferson said even though he was antiChristian, along with Paine and Adams and to some extent Franklin and Washington. We WERE a Christian nation nevertheless, the vast majority of the founding generation were Christian and certainly the population as a whole. I've come to regard the big name founders asa traitors to that essential tradition. But now this IS off topic. Do try to confine your remarks to the topic and refrain from your misrepresentations of my position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Rahvin, posted 01-02-2013 7:01 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(3)
Message 657 of 955 (687911)
01-17-2013 6:04 PM


After all that posturing of Obama with children from Sandy Hook, as if he the biggest defender of the most horrific forms of abortion ever cares one iota about children, I have to ask what in any of those Second-Amendment-hating measures he proposed would have done one thing to prevent the slaughter at that school? Not one.
And did you know that his own children go to a school that is protected by ARMED GUARDS? Why didn't he propose THAT for the rest of America's children? And has anybody noticed that he himself is protected by a huge number of armed bodyguards himself? Yet he tells US we'll be safer without guns? The hypocrisy here is disgusting.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by AZPaul3, posted 01-17-2013 6:28 PM Faith has replied
 Message 673 by ramoss, posted 01-17-2013 8:20 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 658 of 955 (687912)
01-17-2013 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 656 by RAZD
01-17-2013 5:53 PM


Re: And Another cartoon ...
Oh yeah, RAZD, and thanks for that ugly vicious lying piece of slander.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 5:53 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 7:34 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
(2)
Message 660 of 955 (687915)
01-17-2013 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by AZPaul3
01-17-2013 6:28 PM


Why is everybody screaming about the threat to our schools as the REASON for this idiotic attack on the Second Amendment if the threat is not real?
What a BUNCH of hypocrites you all are. We're being set up by liars to be DEPRIVED of the ONLY means that COULD protect our schools, so that ultimately we'll be deprived of anything that could protect us from the government and other forms of armed thuggery.
Again, NOTHING in Obama's designs against the Second Amendment would have protected Sandy Hook! What devious lies you guys are supporting. Again, nothing will protect other schools in those measures. And why SHOULDN'T we all have the protection of guns since it's VERY clear from the fact that Obama has it and his children have it? What do the different CIRCUMSTANCES have to do with it? A threat is a threat.
The regulations will do NOTHING to protect against the murders that are his excuse for them. NOTHING. But GUNS WOULD! As his own method of protection makes VERY clear.
Anybody who defends this devious excuse for depriving Americans of means of self defense is WORSE than a hypocrite.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by AZPaul3, posted 01-17-2013 6:28 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 663 of 955 (687918)
01-17-2013 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by RAZD
01-17-2013 7:05 PM


Re: Another conspiracy is made up fantasy ...
The vast vast majority of gun owners in this country are responsible law-abiding citizens. Tens of millions. My father and brothers are/were (father and one brother are dead) among them.
But you focus on the fringe, the nuts and the addlebrained as your excuse to deprive the VAST VAST MAJORITY OF GOOD PEOPLE OF THEIR MEANS OF SELF DEFENSE. What kind of sense does that make?
At least make the regulations relevant to the causes, but most of them do nothing to deal with the causes.
Obama's measures do NOTHING to prevent the kind of incident that is the supposed reason for all this attack on the Second Amendment. What WOULD protect schools is ARMED GUARDS OR ARMED CITIZENS.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 7:05 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Jon, posted 01-17-2013 7:24 PM Faith has replied
 Message 668 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 7:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 667 of 955 (687922)
01-17-2013 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by Jon
01-17-2013 7:24 PM


Re: Another conspiracy is made up fantasy ...
I agree for the most part, but I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea if some teachers decided to qualify for concealed carry permits. It's been done in some schools in Utah.
But the main point here is that restricting gun rights WON'T accomplish anything to protect children which is what the excuse for doing this is supposed to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by Jon, posted 01-17-2013 7:24 PM Jon has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 669 of 955 (687924)
01-17-2013 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by RAZD
01-17-2013 7:34 PM


Re: And Another cartoon ...
All I can say is good for the NRA, good that there is some entity out there that has some influence in keeping these insane politicians from killing the Second Amendment. But the slander in your cartoon was the implication that anybody wants to defend crazy murderers. I don't and nobody I know does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 7:34 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 670 of 955 (687925)
01-17-2013 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by RAZD
01-17-2013 7:38 PM


Re: Another conspiracy is made up fantasy ...
It didn't hurt, did it? But remove any such form of protection and then you can be SURE murderers will succeed at their mission. Which is exactly what you're going to accomplish with your methods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 7:38 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 8:11 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(5)
Message 675 of 955 (687931)
01-17-2013 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by ramoss
01-17-2013 8:20 PM


Oh gosh.. let's see.. maybe it's well, BECAUSE THE FAMILY OF THE SITTING PRESIDENT IS A TARGET FOR TERRORISM. Can't be that, now can it?
OK, I'll answer this rank stupidity AGAIN.
Either the reason for all this furor about restricting guns is about a REAL THREAT TO OUR SCHOOLS or it is not. Just as there ia a real threat to the family of a sitting President. If it is not, if there is no real threat, then shut up about guns.
If it is then obviously the way you deal with a real threat is WITH ARMED DEFENSE. Same as the threat to the family of a sitting President is dealt with.
IF OBAMA REALLY BELIEVES THAT TAKING AWAY GUNS IS THE SOLUTION TO REAL THREATS ON PEOPLE'S LIVES, LET THAT BECOME LAW AND LET OBAMA GIVE UP HIS ARMED GUARDS.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by ramoss, posted 01-17-2013 8:20 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 677 of 955 (687933)
01-17-2013 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 672 by RAZD
01-17-2013 8:11 PM


Re: Another conspiracy is made up fantasy ...
Aw, it didn't work in those cases. In TWO cases the armed defenders weren't where they were needed when they were needed. But that's another reason to restrict the gun rights of millions of law-abiding citizens?.
You want to treat the real problem you say. Well THAT is not the general ownership of guns by millions of Americans. Tell you what, RAZD, none of the gun control measures are going to stop these murders EITHER.
Wait and see how long it is before another such incident occurs after all Obama's measures are in place. And what will happen? MORE outcry against GUNS. Which are NOT the problem.
There is evidence that psychiatric drugs have been involved in just about all of these cases. Why isn't THIS targeted instead of guns? Why not strengthen laws having to do with qualifications to possess guns rather than attack EVERYBODY's rights?
The fact that these terrible incidents are ALWAYS the excuse for tightening laws against guns for MILLIONS OF GOOD GUYS while they do NOT EVER EVER EVER improve the situation that brought abhout the incidents in the first place is just about the DEFINITION OF INSANITY ITSELF.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 8:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 11:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 682 of 955 (687938)
01-17-2013 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 672 by RAZD
01-17-2013 8:11 PM


Re: Another conspiracy is made up fantasy ...
Because it is foolish. It doesn't nothing to treat the problem. Almost like the NRA wants such incidents to occur so they can increase membership ... and keep you distracted from what is happening between government and big business.
And if they get armed guards into schools, then they are just that much closer to establishing a police state.
Oh for crying out loud. You'd worry about a grass roots organization when it's the government the amendment was intended to fend off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 8:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 9:06 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 702 by xongsmith, posted 01-18-2013 4:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1563 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 687 of 955 (687943)
01-17-2013 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 686 by RAZD
01-17-2013 9:17 PM


Re: Another conspiracy is made up fantasy ...
I notice that my "member rating" has once again dropped below 9 -- good, because that means that I am once again annoying people with irrational beliefs and silly positions.
Yes you ARE annoying some of us with your irrational beliefs and silly positions. Your arguments here are really really silly.
Jon did not say nothing should be done, he said LEGISLATION would not be the right response.
And I agree with him about that although I might disagree with him about what measures should be taken.
Legislation aimed at limiting the gun rights of millions of law-abiding citizens is NOT a reasonable solution to a very rare situation caused by crazies. How absolutely irrational and silly can you get?
I still favor the idea of teachers qualifying for concealed carry permits, but I'm also in favor of armed guards, I just don't think they would be as effective as a few staff carrying guns. This doesn't involve legislation.
But if you ARE going to consider legislation then it should be about who qualifies to carry a gun.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 9:17 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 688 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 10:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024