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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: How can we regulate guns ... ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Thread copied here from the How can we regulate guns ... ? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
crashfrog writes: A request for moderator attention will be forthcoming. No need, I'm here. Crash, please keep the focus of all future messages strictly on topic. In particular, please avoid all reference to any offenses you think others are committing against you, and in fact avoid all reference, direct or indirect, to other participants. Once your 9.0 on the Richter scale quiets it should prove possible to tell if disruptions to this thread are coming from any other sources. Let me provide an example based upon a post from the Gun Control Again thread of what is required of you. Let's say someone says this:
You believe more guns will reduce gun deaths. You should not reply like this:
Again, no, I don't believe that more guns will reduce gun deaths, because again - and please stop misrepresenting me on this point.. You must instead reply like this:
Again, no, I don't believe that more guns will reduce gun deaths, because again I believe that there's no compelling societal interest in merely shifting the mode of homicide from "firearm" to something else. This message constitutes the first warning. Failures to follow this request will draw short suspensions whose length will increase over time. I'll add a bit of moderation. What Panda called ratios don't strike me as ratios either, but the noun Panda chose to refer to his comparisons between guns and knives doesn't matter to the discussion. By focusing on the comparisons rather than quibbling over irrelevant nomenclature you'll move the discussion constructively forward. Please, no replies to this message.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7
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Because the greater lethality of guns over knives is self-evident, and because it isn't the topic of this thread, and to help discussion move constructively forward, discussion on this point should cease. Future discussion may assume that guns are more lethal than knives.
A thread to discuss gun versus knife lethality may be proposed over at Proposed New Topics.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7
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Hi Crashfrog,
The message you replied to stated, "Please, no replies to this message." You just replied. See you tomorrow.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Hi Crashfrog,
I'll address your concerns, but there's to be no reply to this message, and there's to be no further discussion with moderators in this thread. Given your rejection of all attempts to hold up a mirror for you to see what others see I won't make any further attempts at helpful feedback.
crashfrog writes: That's clearly not a reasonable request. Merely as a function of language, I'm not going to be able to respond to any communication put forward to me without an occasional reference to the author of it; "you said this", "earlier you made this argument", "another participant made this argument, do you agree" etc. Those are legitimate parts of any discussion and I certainly can't be expected to proceed without making references to other participants. Statements like "you said this" will not be a problem unless the full statement runs something like "you said this back when you contradicted yourself...etc...", just for example. The accusations have to stop. In the future you might consider giving a careful look to any sentence you write that contains words like "you" or "your" or a member's name.
quote: This message includes no reference directly or indirectly to any participant, so I'm not sure I understand what you're asking me to do. The request to "stop misrepresenting me" is obviously directed at the person you're replying to. You've just accused them of misrepresenting you. This is something you do frequently, sometimes you'll even call it willful misrepresentation and in the past you've been prone to accusing people of lying about you. It has to stop.
Moderation must surely proceed from factual accuracy. "Ratio" was not the noun Panda chose to refer to his comparisons; "ratio" was the noun I asked for evidence of. And accepting that Panda's ratios aren't ratios, to me, lends support to my contention that your conclusion that I have some kind of "pattern" isn't actually the result of anything I'm doing. It's time for you to start accepting the possibility that you've been completely wrong about me. I'm prepared to supply whatever evidence you request, but if your reply is that you're not prepared to consider any of it, then you need to explain to me how you can be so sure you're in the right, here. This isn't a discussion. I've made moderator decisions. You can abide by them or be suspended. Please stop quibbling over the definition of ratio and address the substance of the argument, or just don't reply at all. Please, no replies to this message.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
This is a settled issue now for this thread, I posted this in Message 204:
Admin writes: Because the greater lethality of guns over knives is self-evident, and because it isn't the topic of this thread, and to help discussion move constructively forward, discussion on this point should cease. Future discussion may assume that guns are more lethal than knives.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Hi Crashfrog,
You have again responded to a message that requested no replies, so I'm suspending you again, this time for 48 hours. You are being held to the same standards as everyone else, the relevant rules are 1 and 10 from the Forum Guidelines:
I abbreviated rule 10 a while back in the interest of keeping things simple, it used to also say, "Avoid hectoring and badgering," or something along those lines. I intended the prohibition against referring to other participants more as something that would help you stay out of trouble. You have a strong tendency toward brinksmanship, I didn't want you to be tempted to see how close you could get to the line without going over. If you think you can refer to other participants without becoming gradually more and more personal and hectoring than go ahead and give it a try. Moderators prefer that the members understand the reasons for moderator actions, but you've worn out this consideration. The final straw was last year when moderators attempted to take seriously your complaints about people lying about you and ganging up on you, and in the end you began abusing the moderators, too. Please, no replies to this message.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7
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In other words, please focus on making and supporting the points that will win the debate rather than on making the other side angry or frustrated or ashamed.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
To Panda and Catholic Scientist,
It is very annoying to be repeatedly asked for an explanation that has already been offered. It is also very annoying to be repeatedly denied a clarification of an explanation that was never understood. I don't know which of these is the case, maybe both, but in future exchanges could you both make clear what it is an explanation of that is being requested and denied? Edited by Admin, : Grammar.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
When CS asks, "How would this being national make it too difficult for people to by-pass?", what is it that he is talking about?
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7
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One good clue that you're not constructively contributing to debate is posting short one and two-line messages.
Also, I'm beginning to detect some topic drift. This thread is about the practical issues of designing and implementing effective gun control policies. The other thread, Gun Control Again, is about whether there's a need for gun control.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
I'm drawing the same conclusions from your posts as Theodoric, so there may be some reasonable basis for confusion. Please work with Theodoric to clarify your meaning.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7
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Catholic Scientist writes: I'd rather not reply to him. You know: don't feed the trolls. Let's see, you've called Theodoric a troll, stupid and illiterate, and he's called your arguments ridiculous, vapid and asinine. Let's call it even. Enough now.
Isn't it possible to compare two things without equating them? I think he was being imprecise when he used the word "equate" in his most recent message, and he did use the word "compare" in his first response in Message 568: "There is no way that these two things can be even remotely compared." As it stands now you've replied to him twice since his Message 568 while not addressing any of his specific points about why he felt the comparison invalid. If you choose not to reply to Theodoric then that's fine, just please be consistent about not replying.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7
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Hi CS,
I have to admit I share Theodoric's confusion about what point you're trying to make with the music piracy analogy. It seems like there's only one point that could be made with that analogy, namely that both music piracy and gun control laws have difficult enforcement issues, but you seem to be objecting to that interpretation, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, and I don't think Theodoric is, either. Also, I never thought Theodoric was trying to say that failing to support one regulation means one must support no regulations. Maybe I'm wrong, but you might want to verify that interpretation. Anyway, I'm not a participant, so if you *are* interested in clarifying your point concerning the music piracy analogy then it should be to Theodoric, not me.
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Hi CS,
There's no need to keep replying to me. I would have stayed out of it except that you and Theodoric seemed to be escalating an ad hominem-fest. So I merely noted that I didn't think Theodoric was purposefully misunderstanding you because I didn't understand you either. You likened the enforcement difficulties of music piracy and gun control to each other, which Theodoric and I both understood, then objected that that's not what you were doing, completely confusing both of us and not addressing any of Theodoric's specific objections from Message 568. Instead of trying to sort out all the inevitable "he said this" and "he said that's", maybe you could just restate your point in a different way.
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