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Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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candle2 writes:
1. Science doesn't deal in proof. It deals in evidence. And so do you, of course. When you drive through an intersection, you want evidence that another car is not going to hit you, so you look both ways. Ringo, you say that original life began by naturalprocesses. Where is your absolute proof of this. 2. Science doesn't deal in absolutes. And neither do you, of course. You don't stop at an intersection waiting for "absolute proof" that no car can possibly hit you. You go with the preponderance of evidence, the probability. So stop being dishonest.
candle2 writes:
Nope. Belief is for when there is NO evidence. For example. there is NO evidence of any UNnatural cause for life.
If you cannot provide absolute proof for yourassertion, then all you have is a belief. candle2 writes:
Exactly. So YOUR belief is worth less than one cent.
Beliefs are a dime a dozen. candle2 writes:
I don't have a belief. I have evidence.
And this one belief casts great doubt on anything thatyou hold to be true. candle2 writes:
I don't have any faith, i have evidence.
What is really sad is that you place so much faith... candle2 writes:
Do you know anything about the so-called "laws of nature"? Did you know, for example that even what creationists call 'laws of nature" don't trump evidence?
... in abelief that goes against a time-proven law of nature... candle2 writes:
That "law' is just something that creationists made up. It has nothing to do with science. Scientific evidence shows no such thing. Hint: Life is made of chemicals. What magic do you think there is that makes some chemicals alive and other chemicals not alive? ... and that is simply that life cannot come from non life.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Dwise, you talk about absolute proof for life.
Let me tell you that I personally do not care how you oranyone else think that life began. What you believe has no effect on me or my life. God tells His followers not to "cast their pearls before swine."He tells us that they are unable to appreciate the value of our understanding. In other words, don't offer what one holds dear to someonewho won't appreciate it. My advice to Ringo was he simply does not know howlife began. And, he doesn't. He, like you, can have an opinion, but that's all it will everamount to. Evolutionists believe that life was created by randomchance. But, there is no absolute proof of this. It takes great faith to believe that life came from nonlife. My point was simply that Neither you nor Ringo can befor certain whether life was created by design or by a freak of nature.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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candle2 writes: Evolutionists believe that life was created by randomchance. There are many evolutionists who think the first life was created by God. This is common among Christians who accept evolution. More to the point, not one thing in the theory of evolution would need to be changed if the first life was created by God and the biodiversity we see today evolved from that universal common ancestor.
It takes great faith to believe that life came from nonlife. But it requires no faith to believe life was magicked into existence by a deity?
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Taq, in your vision of theistic evolution are the first
eleven chapters of Genesis to be taken as allegories? Was Adam created by God's own hands, or did Adamevolve from a lower life form? After Adam came to be did evolution continue, or did itthen cease? Do theistic evolutionists believe that God had the power tocreate Adam instantly? You need to clarify your stance.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
candle2 writes: Taq, in your vision of theistic evolution are the firsteleven chapters of Genesis to be taken as allegories? Ask a theistic evolutionist. All I know is that there are millions and millions of Christians who accept evolution.
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Taq, the number of people who believe a certain way has
nothing to do with whether they are right or not.
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candle2 Member Posts: 850 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Ringo, you say that evolutionists do not deal with proof.
And, you are 100% right. There is no proof of evolution. See, we agree. Evolutionists do not have evidence that creationistsdon't have. Everyone has access to the same evidence. The interpretation is different. In any event, evolutionists have faith, and nothing more,that their views are right. Judging by your posts and the evidence (be honest andtell me how close I am) I say with 90% certainty that you live in Canada. 80% certainty that you are female.85% certainty that you are between 75-80 years old. 95% certainty that you believe in the existence of God, but you try your best to deny this. Based on the available evidence how did I do.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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candle2 writes: Taq, the number of people who believe a certain way hasnothing to do with whether they are right or not. We are not talking about whether they are right nor not. We are talking about what they say their beliefs are. Earlier, you said: "Evolutionists believe that life was created by random chance." I was pointing out that this isn't true of all evolutionists. There are evolutionists who believe the first life was created by God.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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candle2 writes: Ringo, you say that evolutionists do not deal with proof.And, you are 100% right. There is no proof of evolution. See, we agree. There is also no proof for the thousands of scientific theories that you do accept, like the Germ Theory of Disease.
Evolutionists do not have evidence that creationists don't have. Everyone has access to the same evidence. The interpretation is different. That's false. Creationists more often than not refuse to interpret the evidence, or interpret it in a way that has no connection to the actual evidence.
In any event, evolutionists have faith, and nothing more, that their views are right. We have evidence, not faith.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Seeing as how this is a Faith & Belief topic, evolution vs creationism, though fair game, takes us off on a rabbit trail. candle, knock it off.
Let me help you steer back on course, or, if you prefer, start a new topic. candle2 writes: The interpretation that should be discussed is the idea of a Higher power, cosmic intelligence, or topic-specifically a Triune God. Evolutionists do not have evidence that creationistsdon't have. Everyone has access to the same evidence. The interpretation is different. The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
And with you it gets even more unnecessarily complex. To wit:
If we can't come to a common understanding of how many gods there are, how can we come to a common understanding of how many aspects one god has?ringo writes: In another thread you even brought up Quatzechotal, for crying out loud! I will try and show you why you run from the truth and are dishonest with yourself.
My main focus in this thread has been, why three? Why not more? Why not less? Message 95Phat writes: Creating the possibility of evil does not make the Creator evil.Choosing which attributes you wish to emulate was only made possible by virtue of the fact that the Creator did not make you only able to behave in a singular and limited fashion. Had the Creator made it so that you were destined to only act out a limited trait, that limitation imposed on you would make you doomed and Him evil. On the other hand, had the Creator made it so that you would never experience evil, He may well have done you a disservice by limiting the scope of your experience. You can call Him evil if you like, and I will always disagree with you. I recall this argument. You stubbornly clung to the fact that if the Creator allowed the "hole to be dug" by which people could fall into it, He was in fact evil.
ringo writes: Digging a hole for people to fall into is evil. So my basic belief, shared by Dr.Peter Kreeft, is that God initially only created the possibility of evil. To wit:
Strobel, Case For Faith writes: "Then God is the creator of evil". Dr.Kreeft, in The Case For Faith interview writes:
Some would agree, others wouldnt. Which only shows that evil is actualized in our world today and threatens to consume us.
"No, he created the possibility of evil; people actualized that possibility. The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom. Even an all-powerful God could not have created a world in which people had genuine freedom and yet there was no potentiality for sin, because our freedom includes the possibility of sin(or rebellion) within its own meaning. It's a self-contradiction--a meaningless nothing--to have a world where there's real choice while at the same time no possibility of choosing evil. To ask why God didnt create such a world is like asking why God didnt create colorless color or round squares. ring, addressing NoNukes writes: You mouth off to God more than I do...even more than Job did! Not bad for a guy who believes there is no (One) God. ! You will likely say that you were talking to NoNukes and not God, but I would come back with "Whatever you do to the least of these you do to Me". Now I expect you to again go off on me that I am the one who does not respect the "Dusty Old Book" and that I don't listen to Jesus and I am often hateful and disrespective of the poor...and others. I was responding to Phat's Message 95which seems to suggest that God created "the possibility of evil" to broaden our range of experiences. My response was that He was doing us no favour. I wont defend my own "goodness" or "badness". In fact I will even say guilty as charged. Now what? ringo writes: Why not think about it for once? You claim that its all God fault according to Isaiah 45:7. In fact, here are several translations:
Message 104 Why couldn't God avoid creating evil by creating a world that didn't evolve? NIV writes:
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.NKJV writes:
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’Amplified Bible writes:
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.Literal Standard Version writes: Forming light, and creating darkness, | Making peace, and creating calamity, | I [am] YHWH, doing all these things. Interesting, to say the least. Note how in Job, God takes full responsibility for all that Job has endured and nobody blames Satan. Once Job actually finds out who God is, he ceased being agitated and inquisitive. He had found God...the One who is, Was, and will forever be. You, on the other hand, have mentioned being Satans defense attorney! Note your response to me in a recent thread:
Phat writes:
You picked knowledge(evidence) over life(Jesus)ringo writes: I maintain that I AM alive, so choosing evidence has not been a problem. The problem with the tree of knowledge is that people became more aware of themselves and less aware of God. Had they chosen the other tree they could have had Jesus but instead they chose the tree of self actualization. And I like how you capitalize I AM. Did the snake teach you that? The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Tangle Member Posts: 9517 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Is there freedom in heaven Phat?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Yes, I believe so. God is confidant and secure there. He does not fear disagreement. I doubt whethere there is any, however. Who would even want to complain?
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Tangle Member Posts: 9517 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes:
So why is it not possible here? Yes, I believe so.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I was unaware that nobody has freedom *here*.
You are free to throw away the bells and smells of your youth. Evidently you never learned any more than that. You were forced to study art while never meeting the artist.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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