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Member (Idle past 5908 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
candle2 Member Posts: 827 Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AZPaul3, you ask me if I have proved God.
I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that He exists.
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candle2 Member Posts: 827 Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle, I did answer it.
Now tell me. Why do you think that God owes you anything? Perhaps, if you were a little more humble when youpray to Him, considering that you do, He might open your eyes a little more. Do be afraid to tell Him exactly what is on your mind.But, be humble.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
AZPaul3, you ask me if I have proved God. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that He exists. Based on what proof? Your conjecture is not proof.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
candle writes: Tangle, I did answer it. [Message=1076] candle2 has not repliedJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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candle2 Member Posts: 827 Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle, l looked back on your message as you suggested.
You agree that God is all powerful. In fact God is omnipotent.He is omnipresent. He is omniscient. You say that God created at least two places for humansthat are/were free of suffering, the Garden of Eden and heaven. You say that there is no reason why we need to be fleshand blood. You say that a soul is good enough for both heaven andhe'll, is it not? The Garden of Eden didn't work out very well, did it? Remember, Adam was flesh and blood. He was a living soul.The soul can die. There are only two states of being. One is flesh and blood.That is the physical us. The other state is that of spirit. As of now only the Father;the son; and, the angels, both fallen and faithful, are composed of spirit. That is all. Adam and Eve, because they were physical beings, couldget hungry; tired; and, being that they had nerve endings, they could feel pain. They lusted for what seemed pleasant and appealing tothem. Their lust, especially Eve's, became too strong to resist. This is where sin entered the pictured. Sin is defined astrangressing God's laws. Sin brings death. Eden was not a perfect situation for two primary reasons. One is that they were mortals, no more. The other is that they did not possess the unflappablemoral character required to govern without sin. Sin is a big deal. It is a huge deal. Sin is so agregious that Christ died a horrible death inorder to pay the cost of Sin Himself. One should read about the licters (those trained to beatSomeone to the point of death without actually killing them. This was left to the crucifixion. The licter used whips such as the "cat-o-nine-tails, whichwe're embedded with shards of glass, metal, or bone. Each time Jesus was hit the ends would wrap around Himand rip out chunks of meat. God despises Sin (transgressing His laws) as much noware He ever did. No one goes to heaven, where God's throne is. Heavenhas never been our destination. Also, there was a great rebellion in heaven. This rebellionhas resulted to much destruction in the universe. Once a spirit being's character has set, it is like concrete.It will not change. The angels who remained faithful to God will remainfaithful for eternity. The fallen angels will always hate God and His creation. You need to remember this point. You will have to wait for the rest of my post.I don't like long posts. Besides I have things to do.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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candle2 writes: You say that a soul is good enough for both heaven andhe'll, is it not? The Garden of Eden didn't work out very well, did it? blah, blah, blah. You don't answer Tangles point. If your flavor of god was all powerful here, there and everywhere why was the Garden of Eden such a fuck-up?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
candle2 writes: You agree that God is all powerful. In fact God is omnipotent. He is omnipresent. He is omniscient. So he's all powerful but not powerful enough to make a place where suffering does not exist? Edited by Tangle, . Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You have yet to have your Job moment with the Creator. Where you will get to whine to Him about all of the universal pain and suffering that He could have prevented and how He could have just made earth like Heaven if He was so all-powerful. I doubt you would say anything, however. You don't believe He ever existed. Perhaps you would rather "take your chances" with a universe of chance.
Maybe you and I can go fishing and promise never to bring religion up as a topic of conversation. Except we would still have politics! The way I see it, God (as I understand Him) either has a good reason for the way things are in this world orI'll never know until I die...if even then. So perhaps fishing is the best option. And I think I'll shut up about politics too, unless you bring it up.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Taq Member Posts: 9972 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Phat writes: You have yet to have your Job moment with the Creator. Where you will get to whine to Him about all of the universal pain and suffering that He could have prevented and how He could have just made earth like Heaven if He was so all-powerful. I doubt you would say anything, however. You don't believe He ever existed. Perhaps you would rather "take your chances" with a universe of chance. We atheists will point out that our universe is indistinguishable from one where there is no God. If there was an all powerful God who claimed to love us then this is not the universe we would expect to see. That's the point.
So perhaps fishing is the best option. A very excellent option, especially once the weather warms up here in the Northern Hemisphere.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
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A very excellent option, especially once the weather warms up here in the Northern Hemisphere. I have a friend who teaches ice fishing in Minnesota. "Put a worm on this hook and lower it through this hole and then sit there and freeze your ass off for 3 hours." I draw the line at driving my truck out on the ice though! Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Taq writes:
Fascinating logic. We atheists will point out that our universe is indistinguishable from one where there is no God. What makes you qualified to know what a godless universe looks like? Please explain how a godless universe differs from a universe that includes God.
If there was an all powerful God who claimed to love us then this is not the universe we would expect to see. That's the point.
The point is, you atheists ignore what the Bible says about Original Sin destroying the world that the first humans (Adam and Eve) experienced. You atheists also ignore the promise God makes in the Bible to provide a Paradise that his children will enjoy forever. Atheists like you simply don't want God to exist, so why bother inventing fake excuses to reject belief in him?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
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Sludge writes: What makes you qualified to know what a godless universe looks like? I authorized it, but he has a brain and everyone can see that there is no evidence of any gods in this Universe.
Sludge writes: Please explain how a godless universe differs from a universe that includes God.
That's an easy one, even you should be able to figure it out.
Sludge writes: The point is, you atheists ignore what the Bible says about Original Sin destroying the world that the first humans (Adam and Eve) experienced. Because it's fiction from a 2000 year old Pedo Cult.
Sludge writes: You atheists also ignore the promise God makes in the Bible to provide a Paradise that his children will enjoy forever. Because it's fiction from a 2000 year old Pedo Cult.
Sludge writes: Atheists like you simply don't want God to exist, so why bother inventing fake excuses to reject belief in him? We don't care if a god exists, and we didn't "invent" the absolute lack of any evidence of any gods ever existing.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Taq Member Posts: 9972 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Dredge writes: What makes you qualified to know what a godless universe looks like? Having empathy, reason, and logic makes me qualified. A God who claims to be all powerful and also claims to love us wouldn't allow such suffering. I guess there could be a God who enjoys having humans suffer and hides his existence from humans, but that would again be indistinguishable from a universe where God does not exist.
Please explain how a godless universe differs from a universe that includes God. A universe with God would be heaven. We don't live in heaven. There is no evidence that a heaven exists.
The point is, you atheists ignore what the Bible says about Original Sin destroying the world that the first humans (Adam and Eve) experienced. Those are just human stories trying to rationalize why the universe looks like one where there is no loving and all powerful God.
You atheists also ignore the promise God makes in the Bible to provide a Paradise that his children will enjoy forever. Those are promises written by humans. The Bible was written by humans. Humans are not God.
Atheists like you simply don't want God to exist, so why bother inventing fake excuses to reject belief in him? I would love it if God existed, but I'm not going to fool myself into believe God exists just because it would be nice if God did exist. Added in edit: "Is God willing to prevent evil but unable to do so? Then he is not omnipotent.""Is God able to prevent evil but unwilling to do so? Then he is malevolent (or at least less than perfectly good)." "If God is both willing and able to prevent evil then why is there evil in the world?" --Epicurus Edited by Taq, .
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Taq writes: Off the cuff....I AM that I AM. Jesus is God, so that would mean God started to exist when God was a gleam in his own eye. That doesn't make much sense.
I AM (a gleam) that I AM (a gleam.) Of course, the trajectory of our argument centers around what sense is.
Websters writes: Synonyms of sense1 : a meaning conveyed or intended : import, signification especially : one of a set of meanings a word or phrase may bear especially as segregated in a dictionary entry 2 a : the faculty of perceiving by means of sense organs b : a specialized function or mechanism (such as sight, hearing, smell, taste, or touch) by which an animal receives and responds to external or internal stimuli c : the sensory mechanisms constituting a unit distinct from other functions (such as movement or thought) 3 : conscious awareness or rationality —usually used in plural finally came to his senses 4 a : a particular sensation or kind or quality of sensation a good sense of balance b : a definite but often vague awareness or impression felt a sense of insecurity a sense of danger c : a motivating awareness a sense of shame d : a discerning awareness and appreciation her sense of humor 5 : consensus the sense of the meeting 6 a : capacity for effective application of the powers of the mind as a basis for action or response : intelligence b : sound mental capacity and understanding typically marked by shrewdness and practicality also : agreement with or satisfaction of such power this decision makes sense 7 : one of two opposite directions especially of motion (as of a point, line, or surface) In that definition of sense as a noun, I would highlight these particular impressions:
Of course, anything can be argued to make sense. As a believer, my argument is likely predictable. The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Taq Member Posts: 9972 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Phat writes: Of course, anything can be argued to make sense. As a believer, my argument is likely predictable. Humans have the peculiar ability to convince themselves of almost anything. Interviews of people at Trump rallies are a perfect example.
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