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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
candle2
Member
Posts: 827
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1126 of 1864 (905620)
01-31-2023 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1123 by AZPaul3
01-31-2023 4:38 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
AZPaul3, you ask me if I have proved God.
I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that He exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1123 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2023 4:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1128 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2023 7:43 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 827
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1127 of 1864 (905621)
01-31-2023 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1125 by Tangle
01-31-2023 5:15 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Tangle, I did answer it.
Now tell me.
Why do you think that God owes you anything?
Perhaps, if you were a little more humble when you
pray to Him, considering that you do, He might open
your eyes a little more.
Do be afraid to tell Him exactly what is on your mind.
But, be humble.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1125 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2023 5:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1129 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2023 3:13 AM candle2 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1128 of 1864 (905622)
01-31-2023 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1126 by candle2
01-31-2023 6:50 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
AZPaul3, you ask me if I have proved God.

I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that He exists.
Based on what proof?
Your conjecture is not proof.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1126 by candle2, posted 01-31-2023 6:50 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1129 of 1864 (905626)
02-01-2023 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1127 by candle2
01-31-2023 6:57 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
candle writes:
Tangle, I did answer it.
[Message=1076]
candle2 has not replied

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1127 by candle2, posted 01-31-2023 6:57 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 827
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1130 of 1864 (905632)
02-01-2023 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1076 by Tangle
01-23-2023 12:33 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Tangle, l looked back on your message as you suggested.
You agree that God is all powerful.
In fact God is omnipotent.
He is omnipresent.
He is omniscient.
You say that God created at least two places for humans
that are/were free of suffering, the Garden of Eden and
heaven.
You say that there is no reason why we need to be flesh
and blood.
You say that a soul is good enough for both heaven and
he'll, is it not?
The Garden of Eden didn't work out very well, did it?
Remember, Adam was flesh and blood. He was a living soul.
The soul can die.
There are only two states of being. One is flesh and blood.
That is the physical us.
The other state is that of spirit. As of now only the Father;
the son; and, the angels, both fallen and faithful, are
composed of spirit. That is all.
Adam and Eve, because they were physical beings, could
get hungry; tired; and, being that they had nerve endings,
they could feel pain.
They lusted for what seemed pleasant and appealing to
them.
Their lust, especially Eve's, became too strong to resist.
This is where sin entered the pictured. Sin is defined as
trangressing God's laws.
Sin brings death.
Eden was not a perfect situation for two primary reasons.
One is that they were mortals, no more.
The other is that they did not possess the unflappable
moral character required to govern without sin.
Sin is a big deal. It is a huge deal.
Sin is so agregious that Christ died a horrible death in
order to pay the cost of Sin Himself.
One should read about the licters (those trained to beat
Someone to the point of death without actually killing
them.
This was left to the crucifixion.
The licter used whips such as the "cat-o-nine-tails, which
we're embedded with shards of glass, metal, or bone.
Each time Jesus was hit the ends would wrap around Him
and rip out chunks of meat.
God despises Sin (transgressing His laws) as much now
are He ever did.
No one goes to heaven, where God's throne is. Heaven
has never been our destination.
Also, there was a great rebellion in heaven. This rebellion
has resulted to much destruction in the universe.
Once a spirit being's character has set, it is like concrete.
It will not change.
The angels who remained faithful to God will remain
faithful for eternity.
The fallen angels will always hate God and His creation.
You need to remember this point.
You will have to wait for the rest of my post.
I don't like long posts. Besides I have things to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1076 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2023 12:33 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1131 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2023 11:55 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 1132 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2023 12:57 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 1151 by ringo, posted 02-02-2023 11:23 AM candle2 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1131 of 1864 (905634)
02-01-2023 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1130 by candle2
02-01-2023 11:11 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
candle2 writes:
You say that a soul is good enough for both heaven and
he'll, is it not?

The Garden of Eden didn't work out very well, did it?
blah, blah, blah.
You don't answer Tangles point.
If your flavor of god was all powerful here, there and everywhere why was the Garden of Eden such a fuck-up?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1130 by candle2, posted 02-01-2023 11:11 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1132 of 1864 (905637)
02-01-2023 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1130 by candle2
02-01-2023 11:11 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
candle2 writes:
You agree that God is all powerful.

In fact God is omnipotent.
He is omnipresent.
He is omniscient.
So he's all powerful but not powerful enough to make a place where suffering does not exist?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1130 by candle2, posted 02-01-2023 11:11 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1133 of 1864 (905639)
02-01-2023 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1119 by Tangle
01-31-2023 3:44 PM


Religion & Politics
You have yet to have your Job moment with the Creator. Where you will get to whine to Him about all of the universal pain and suffering that He could have prevented and how He could have just made earth like Heaven if He was so all-powerful. I doubt you would say anything, however. You don't believe He ever existed. Perhaps you would rather "take your chances" with a universe of chance.
Maybe you and I can go fishing and promise never to bring religion up as a topic of conversation.
Except we would still have politics!
The way I see it, God (as I understand Him) either has a good reason for the way things are in this world
or
I'll never know until I die...if even then.
So perhaps fishing is the best option. And I think I'll shut up about politics too, unless you bring it up.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1119 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2023 3:44 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1134 by Taq, posted 02-01-2023 2:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 1134 of 1864 (905640)
02-01-2023 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1133 by Phat
02-01-2023 1:56 PM


Re: Religion & Politics
Phat writes:
You have yet to have your Job moment with the Creator. Where you will get to whine to Him about all of the universal pain and suffering that He could have prevented and how He could have just made earth like Heaven if He was so all-powerful. I doubt you would say anything, however. You don't believe He ever existed. Perhaps you would rather "take your chances" with a universe of chance.
We atheists will point out that our universe is indistinguishable from one where there is no God. If there was an all powerful God who claimed to love us then this is not the universe we would expect to see. That's the point.
So perhaps fishing is the best option.
A very excellent option, especially once the weather warms up here in the Northern Hemisphere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1133 by Phat, posted 02-01-2023 1:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1135 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-01-2023 2:27 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 1136 by Dredge, posted 02-01-2023 2:45 PM Taq has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 1135 of 1864 (905641)
02-01-2023 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1134 by Taq
02-01-2023 2:09 PM


Re: Religion & Politics
A very excellent option, especially once the weather warms up here in the Northern Hemisphere.
I have a friend who teaches ice fishing in Minnesota. "Put a worm on this hook and lower it through this hole and then sit there and freeze your ass off for 3 hours." I draw the line at driving my truck out on the ice though!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1134 by Taq, posted 02-01-2023 2:09 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1142 by Theodoric, posted 02-01-2023 5:56 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1136 of 1864 (905642)
02-01-2023 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1134 by Taq
02-01-2023 2:09 PM


Re: Religion & Politics
Taq writes:
We atheists will point out that our universe is indistinguishable from one where there is no God.
Fascinating logic.
What makes you qualified to know what a godless universe looks like?
Please explain how a godless universe differs from a universe that includes God.
If there was an all powerful God who claimed to love us then this is not the universe we would expect to see. That's the point.
The point is, you atheists ignore what the Bible says about Original Sin destroying the world that the first humans (Adam and Eve) experienced.
You atheists also ignore the promise God makes in the Bible to provide a Paradise that his children will enjoy forever.
Atheists like you simply don't want God to exist, so why bother inventing fake excuses to reject belief in him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1134 by Taq, posted 02-01-2023 2:09 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1137 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-01-2023 3:14 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1138 by Taq, posted 02-01-2023 3:33 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1152 by ringo, posted 02-02-2023 11:28 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 1137 of 1864 (905643)
02-01-2023 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1136 by Dredge
02-01-2023 2:45 PM


Re: Religion & Politics
Sludge writes:
What makes you qualified to know what a godless universe looks like?
I authorized it, but he has a brain and everyone can see that there is no evidence of any gods in this Universe.
Sludge writes:
Please explain how a godless universe differs from a universe that includes God.
That's an easy one, even you should be able to figure it out.
Sludge writes:
The point is, you atheists ignore what the Bible says about Original Sin destroying the world that the first humans (Adam and Eve) experienced.
Because it's fiction from a 2000 year old Pedo Cult.
Sludge writes:
You atheists also ignore the promise God makes in the Bible to provide a Paradise that his children will enjoy forever.
Because it's fiction from a 2000 year old Pedo Cult.
Sludge writes:
Atheists like you simply don't want God to exist, so why bother inventing fake excuses to reject belief in him?
We don't care if a god exists, and we didn't "invent" the absolute lack of any evidence of any gods ever existing.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1136 by Dredge, posted 02-01-2023 2:45 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 1138 of 1864 (905645)
02-01-2023 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1136 by Dredge
02-01-2023 2:45 PM


Re: Religion & Politics
Dredge writes:
What makes you qualified to know what a godless universe looks like?
Having empathy, reason, and logic makes me qualified. A God who claims to be all powerful and also claims to love us wouldn't allow such suffering. I guess there could be a God who enjoys having humans suffer and hides his existence from humans, but that would again be indistinguishable from a universe where God does not exist.
Please explain how a godless universe differs from a universe that includes God.
A universe with God would be heaven. We don't live in heaven. There is no evidence that a heaven exists.
The point is, you atheists ignore what the Bible says about Original Sin destroying the world that the first humans (Adam and Eve) experienced.
Those are just human stories trying to rationalize why the universe looks like one where there is no loving and all powerful God.
You atheists also ignore the promise God makes in the Bible to provide a Paradise that his children will enjoy forever.
Those are promises written by humans. The Bible was written by humans. Humans are not God.
Atheists like you simply don't want God to exist, so why bother inventing fake excuses to reject belief in him?
I would love it if God existed, but I'm not going to fool myself into believe God exists just because it would be nice if God did exist.
Added in edit:
"Is God willing to prevent evil but unable to do so? Then he is not omnipotent."
"Is God able to prevent evil but unwilling to do so? Then he is malevolent (or at least less than perfectly good)."
"If God is both willing and able to prevent evil then why is there evil in the world?"
--Epicurus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1136 by Dredge, posted 02-01-2023 2:45 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1139 of 1864 (905646)
02-01-2023 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 809 by Taq
11-04-2022 3:33 PM


Making Sense Of Sense
Taq writes:
Jesus is God, so that would mean God started to exist when God was a gleam in his own eye. That doesn't make much sense.
Off the cuff....I AM that I AM.
I AM (a gleam) that I AM (a gleam.) Of course, the trajectory of our argument centers around what sense is.
Websters writes:
Synonyms of sense
1
: a meaning conveyed or intended : import, signification
especially : one of a set of meanings a word or phrase may bear especially as segregated in a dictionary entry
2
a
: the faculty of perceiving by means of sense organs
b
: a specialized function or mechanism (such as sight, hearing, smell, taste, or touch) by which an animal receives and responds to external or internal stimuli
c
: the sensory mechanisms constituting a unit distinct from other functions (such as movement or thought)
3
: conscious awareness or rationality
—usually used in plural
finally came to his senses
4
a
: a particular sensation or kind or quality of sensation
a good sense of balance
b
: a definite but often vague awareness or impression
felt a sense of insecurity
a sense of danger
c
: a motivating awareness
a sense of shame
d
: a discerning awareness and appreciation
her sense of humor
5
: consensus
the sense of the meeting
6
a
: capacity for effective application of the powers of the mind as a basis for action or response : intelligence
b
: sound mental capacity and understanding typically marked by shrewdness and practicality
also : agreement with or satisfaction of such power
this decision makes sense
7
: one of two opposite directions especially of motion (as of a point, line, or surface)
In that definition of sense as a noun, I would highlight these particular impressions:
  • conscious awareness or rationality
  • a meaning conveyed or intended : import, signification
  • a definite but often vague awareness or impression
  • a discerning awareness and appreciation
    Of course, anything can be argued to make sense. As a believer, my argument is likely predictable.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 809 by Taq, posted 11-04-2022 3:33 PM Taq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1140 by Taq, posted 02-01-2023 4:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1153 by ringo, posted 02-02-2023 11:32 AM Phat has replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9972
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 5.5


    (1)
    Message 1140 of 1864 (905649)
    02-01-2023 4:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 1139 by Phat
    02-01-2023 3:33 PM


    Re: Making Sense Of Sense
    Phat writes:
    Of course, anything can be argued to make sense. As a believer, my argument is likely predictable.
    Humans have the peculiar ability to convince themselves of almost anything. Interviews of people at Trump rallies are a perfect example.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1139 by Phat, posted 02-01-2023 3:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1141 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-01-2023 4:40 PM Taq has not replied

      
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