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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 826 of 963 (901255)
11-07-2022 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 824 by candle2
11-06-2022 7:01 AM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
candle2 writes:
Ringo, read Luke 24:25-27...
​What was Luke's issue?

Was he lying?
Was he deceived?
Was he doing mushrooms, which caused him to hallucinate?
Could be. Or he could have been writing fiction.
candle2 writes:
In other words, Jesus stated plainly that He pointed
out to all the OT prophets all the OT scriptures that
pertained to Him.
You might not have noticed but the phrase "so that the prophecy would be fulfilled" appears fairly often in the Gospels. It seems that either Jesus did some things so that prophecy's would SEEM to be fulfilled by Him (which doesn't count as fulfilled prophecy)... OR... the gospel writers inserted that phrase to artificially link the prophecies to Jesus (which doesn't count as fulfilled prophecy).
candle2 writes:
In order for Him to have been able to do that He would
have, by necessity, had pre-existence before His human
birth by Mary.
OR... He could have read the Torah.
candle2 writes:
The only way you can maintain that Christ was not the
Creator of all that exists is to deny, deny, deny.
OR... to read the Bible.
Everything you have posted is extremely weak.
candle2 writes:
And, that is not a good premise in which to reach a
reasonable conclusion.
You're as bad as Phat. Skepticism is by far the best way to reach a reasonable conclusion.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 824 by candle2, posted 11-06-2022 7:01 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 827 of 963 (901263)
11-07-2022 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by ringo
11-05-2022 12:43 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
Skeptical ringo writes:
The Exodus is fiction.
So say Satans Minions Mythicist Historians. But not all agree.
Did the Exodus Never Happen? | Christianity Today
quote:
Open up the popular magazine Biblical Archaeology Review today and you will find almost everyone questioning the Exodus account and a lot of the other biblical stories as well. In the July-August 1997 issue, a curious exchange takes place between Niels Peter Lemche and Thomas Thompson, on the biblical minimalist side, and two challengers to the minimalist position, William Dever and P. Kyle McCarter. What is revealing in the dialogue are the defensive tactics taken by one of the moderates, Dever, a professor at the University of Arizona and a leading authority on Syro-Palestinian archaeology (he long ago rejected the term "biblical archaeology").
"I agree with you that [the Book of] Joshua has little to do with any historical events," he says at one point. "If you guys think I—or the Israeli archaeologists—am looking for the Israelite conquest archaeologically, you're wrong. We've given that up. We've given up the patriarchs." After Dever has defended the likelihood of a united monarchy under David and Solomon (which is part of what makes him a moderate) and is attacked by Thompson for his motives in searching for and finding a gate at Gezer thought to have been built by Solomon, Dever retorts: "Tom, I don't care in the least whether Solomon ever existed. I'm probably more of a disbeliever than you. I don't really care about the tradition. I don't believe any of the myths." Finally, after having endured Thompson's innuendoes and attacks throughout the debate, Dever exclaims in sheer exasperation: "I do resent being called a fundamentalist."

Note how the motives of the minions are exposed as blatant attacks on all things that would support any Biblical narrative. These people...these atheists...have an ax to grind.
quote:
What is it that turns William Dever into a "fundamentalist" for seeing an association between a gate and the biblical account of Solomon? The answer, says James Hoffmeier of Wheaton College in Illinois, is summed up in one phrase: the hermeneutics of suspicion. If Albright had been able to convince a generation of scholars that the Bible's account of Israel's origin could be matched in general terms to the evidence from the digs, it was because the Bible was still considered "innocent until found guilty." The undoing of the Albright antidote to Wellhausen skepticism came when people like Lemche and Thompson began insisting that the Bible stories should be viewed as fables until indisputable evidence proved them to be historical. The accounts were now seen as fictional until proven factual, guilty until proven innocent
I've always said that the jury is still out. The article in CT concurs.
quote:
But the battle for Jericho, the Exodus, and the other stories of Israel's origins isn't over yet, says Hoffmeier, who has just published a monograph titled Israel in Egypt with Oxford University Press, and Kenneth Kitchen, a veteran ancient-languages expert at the University of Liverpool in England. It is just the beginning of round three.(...)Despite the current revisionist work, Hoffmeier and Kitchen are confident the future will side with those who take the Bible's history seriously.
candle2, check out the link. Ringo likely thinks he knows it all anyway, and likely won't read the article.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by ringo, posted 11-05-2022 12:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2022 12:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 829 by ringo, posted 11-07-2022 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 830 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2022 4:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8789
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 828 of 963 (901265)
11-07-2022 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Phat
11-07-2022 12:01 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
The jury has been back for years. The Exodus is pure myth.
quote:
Origins and historicity
See also: Sources and parallels of the Exodus and Historicity of the Bible
There are two main positions on the historicity of the Exodus in modern scholarship.[3] The majority position is that the biblical Exodus narrative has some historical basis, although there is little of historical worth in it.[7][6][11] The other position, often associated with the school of Biblical minimalism,[23][24] is that the biblical exodus traditions are the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis.[25] The biblical Exodus narrative is best understood as a founding myth of the Jewish people, providing an ideological foundation for their culture and institutions, not an accurate depiction of the history of the Israelites.[26][11] The view that the biblical narrative is essentially correct unless it can explicitly be proved wrong (Biblical maximalism) is today held by "few, if any [...] in mainstream scholarship, only on the more fundamentalist fringes."[3] There is no direct evidence for any of the people or Exodus events in non-biblical ancient texts or in archaeological remains, and this has led most scholars to omit the Exodus events from comprehensive histories of Israel.[27]
The Exodus - Wikipedia

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Phat, posted 11-07-2022 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 3:45 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 829 of 963 (901266)
11-07-2022 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Phat
11-07-2022 12:01 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
Phat writes:
So say Satans Minions....
Read Job. Satan is God's minion.
Phat writes:
But not all agree.
Did the Exodus Never Happen? | Christianity Today
Hmm...? Your own quote says, "If you guys think I—or the Israeli archaeologists—am looking for the Israelite conquest archaeologically, you're wrong. We've given that up. We've given up the patriarchs."
I don't see how that disagrees with me.
Phat writes:
Note how the motives of the minions are exposed...
I note that motivations are irrelevant to the actual facts. And there are no actual facts supporting the Exodus.
Phat writes:
The accounts were now seen as fictional until proven factual, guilty until proven innocent
Yes. That is how science is done.
Phat writes:
I've always said that the jury is still out.
And you've nearly always been wrong about that. The jury could be in, the verdict announced, the perpetrator sentenced and executed - and you'd still say the jury was out.
Phat writes:
The article in CT concurs.
It doesn't though, does it? It expresses a hope that some day in the future, evidence might be found.
Phat writes:
Ringo likely thinks he knows it all anyway, and likely won't read the article.
The parts you quoted don't support you. Feel free to quote something that does.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Phat, posted 11-07-2022 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 830 of 963 (901275)
11-07-2022 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by Phat
11-07-2022 12:01 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
There is no Solomonic gate. The gate at Gezer dates to a much later time period. I have actually been there. It is a cool site.
Who is the Atheist in your mind?
Dever is the only atheist in that group
The jury is not out about your "sacred" books being accurate historically. They are not. Biblical archaeology was like creation science. There was a conclusion they wanted to reach and they searched for evidence to support it. Discounting anything that did not meet the narrative. In the last 40 years, the biblical aspect has been subsumed and has had less and less of an influence on modern scholars. Now they analyze the data and let it lead them to a conclusion. The conclusion does not support your books of mythology. If it did, then there would be published research showing this.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Phat, posted 11-07-2022 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 831 of 963 (901574)
11-11-2022 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 828 by Tangle
11-07-2022 12:12 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
Tangle, the Israelites crossed the Red Sea at the Gulf of
Aquaba.
The exact sight is at Nuweiba Beach.
The location of Mt. Sinai is in Saudi Arabia.
The evidence is overwhelming and fits perfectly with
the account in Exodus.
I would advise everyone to watch the videos and read
the articles about Nuweiba Beach and the Red Sea
Crossing.
I have been looking into this for several decades.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2022 12:12 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 832 by PaulK, posted 11-11-2022 4:17 PM candle2 has replied
 Message 835 by dwise1, posted 11-11-2022 7:38 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 836 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2022 8:58 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 832 of 963 (901575)
11-11-2022 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by candle2
11-11-2022 3:45 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Tangle, the Israelites crossed the Red Sea at the Gulf of
Aquaba.
Highly unlikely, the Gulf of Aqaba is too deep.
quote:
The exact sight is at Nuweiba Beach.
It’s been discussed here, and that is really unlikely.
quote:
The location of Mt. Sinai is in Saudi Arabia.
The traditional location fits better.
quote:
The evidence is overwhelming and fits perfectly with
the account in Exodus.
The evidence is really, really underwhelming.
quote:
I would advise everyone to watch the videos and read
the articles about Nuweiba Beach and the Red Sea
Crossing.
Only if you want to laugh at them.
quote:
I have been looking into this for several decades.
Obviously you haven’t been looking very hard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 3:45 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 6:28 PM PaulK has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 833 of 963 (901577)
11-11-2022 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 832 by PaulK
11-11-2022 4:17 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
Paulk, there is no other location that fits the Biblical
description of the Red Sea crossing.
If you believe there is, then state your location. But, it
won't add up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by PaulK, posted 11-11-2022 4:17 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-11-2022 6:30 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 837 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2022 1:31 AM candle2 has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3698
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 834 of 963 (901578)
11-11-2022 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by candle2
11-11-2022 6:28 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
It's fiction. It never happened.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 6:28 PM candle2 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5475
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 835 of 963 (901579)
11-11-2022 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by candle2
11-11-2022 3:45 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
I have been looking into this for several decades.
At any time in all those "several decades" that you've been "looking into this", had it never ever occurred to you to look at a map?
A cardinal rule in doing research is verify, verify, verify! If you had ever bothered to even try to verify your "findings", then you would not have made such utterly stupid assertions.
The location of Mt. Sinai is in Saudi Arabia.
Wrong! The location of Mt. Sinai is towards the tip of the Sinai Peninsula, which is located between the Suez Gulf to the west and the Gulf of Aquaba to the east. The Sinai Peninsula is in Egypt (though occupied by Israel from 1967 to 1982), not in Saudi Arabia which is east of the Gulf of Aquaba.
Look at a map!
Tangle, the Israelites crossed the Red Sea at the Gulf of
Aquaba.

The exact sight is at Nuweiba Beach.
Fire up Google Earth and look! Nuweiba Beach is at 28°58'52"N 34°41'08"E . Move your mouse cursor over the gulf at that "crossing" and you will see that the depth of the gulf at that point is more than 2000 feet DEEP!
Really? You never checked that out?
Also, why there? Why would the escape route of the Israelites take such an enormous detour? To the west of that terrain is mountains more than 1000 feet high. On the other side of the gulf to the east that terrain is also mountainous rising to over 2000 feet. What overland route did they and the Egyptian army with their war chariots take to get there in the first place?
What you propose is not only obviously false, but also completely insane.
I would advise everyone to watch the videos and read
the articles about Nuweiba Beach and the Red Sea
Crossing.
What videos? What articles? I cannot find where you ever presented link to any such "sources".
But rather, you need to view and read them, take copious notes, and verify each and every claim that they make!
That verification procedure will require you to look at the maps. Topographical maps which include the depth of the water in the gulf.
Until you do that, then all we can say is "Fuck your stupid videos and articles! THEY ARE LYING TO YOU!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 3:45 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 836 of 963 (901581)
11-11-2022 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by candle2
11-11-2022 3:45 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
There is no evidence. If there was you would present it.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 3:45 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 837 of 963 (901582)
11-12-2022 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 833 by candle2
11-11-2022 6:28 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
quote:
Paulk, there is no other location that fits the Biblical
description of the Red Sea crossing.
There is no real description of the site, beyond “before Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, opposite Baal Zephon”. These locations are all uncertain, except perhaps Migdol. Even the idea that the text should be translated as meaning the Red Sea is in question. Beyond that, all we can say is that the location is implied to have been flat and level enough for chariots to be a major threat. Nuweiba does not fit that description, and certainly not the actual crossing.
quote:
If you believe there is, then state your location. But, it
won't add up.
If it - or anything like it - ever happened (it probably did not) the most likely site is at or near the former Ballah Lakes (now occupied by the Suez Canal). That is where Migdol was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by candle2, posted 11-11-2022 6:28 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by candle2, posted 11-12-2022 6:00 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 843 by candle2, posted 11-13-2022 10:11 AM PaulK has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 838 of 963 (901584)
11-12-2022 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 837 by PaulK
11-12-2022 1:31 AM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
Paulk, I have had problems accessing the site the past
couple of days. I don't know why.
The Bible says a good deal about the description of the
route that the Israelites took. I will get to that in another
post. Right now I want to relay what NASA discovered in
1991.
In 1991 Saddam Hussein (Iraq) had his troops bury 1500
tanks up to the turrets along the Saudi border. He
concealed them.
The United States determined that the tanks (metal)
would heat up during the day and when the land cooled
at night infrared would permit them to locate each and
every tank.
The infrared cameras were sensitive enough to detect a
temperature difference of just half a degree F.
The infrared cameras pinpointed the exact route of the
Exodus. It pinpointed a thin red line from Succoth
through the wilderness of the Red Sea, through the Wadi
Watir, to Nuweiba Beach, on the Gulf of Aquaba.
The thin red line continued on the other side of the Red
Sea, and continued on to Jabal Al Lawz (Mt. Sinai) in
Saudi Arabia.
NASA theorized that the roughly two and a half million
Israelites, plus their livestock and other animals
pulverized the sand into a fine powder that hardened and
was then covered by a layer of sand.
The hard-packed route would collect more heat from the
sun and the night-time differences in temperature would
show up on infrared.
It shows the exact route that the Bible lays out.
This is an undeniable fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2022 1:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 839 by dwise1, posted 11-12-2022 7:24 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 840 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2022 8:53 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 841 by Theodoric, posted 11-12-2022 10:40 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 842 by PaulK, posted 11-13-2022 2:30 AM candle2 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5475
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 839 of 963 (901585)
11-12-2022 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 838 by candle2
11-12-2022 6:00 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
Paulk, I have had problems accessing the site the past
couple of days. I don't know why.
I couldn't access the site for a couple hours this morning. Couldn't even ping it. So it looks like the site has been down.
{ usual nonsense }
NASA, huh? Is that the same NASA lab that in the mid-60's used a lunar orbit prediction program that discovered and confirmed Joshua's Long Day?
Do follow that link, BTW.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by candle2, posted 11-12-2022 6:00 PM candle2 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7324
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 840 of 963 (901598)
11-12-2022 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 838 by candle2
11-12-2022 6:00 PM


Re: Jewish chronicles and the big
This is an undeniable fact.
Eminently deniable since your info is bogus as is anything else Ron Wyatt puts out.
NASA reported no such bullcrap, ever, and the exodus was a myth.
The only references you can cite are religious charlatans with no original sources, only lies.
Show us the original government documents, unfiltered thru your charlatan sites, or admit it's all crap.
I defy you to show any viable evidence of this NASA claim or any evidence of this exodus foolishness.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by candle2, posted 11-12-2022 6:00 PM candle2 has not replied

  
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