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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 991 of 1864 (905157)
01-19-2023 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 988 by Phat
01-19-2023 4:36 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Yes, I believe so. God is confidant and secure there. He does not fear disagreement.
If our freedom is the the cause of evil then there will also be evil in heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 988 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 992 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:49 AM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 992 of 1864 (905159)
01-19-2023 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 991 by Taq
01-19-2023 10:45 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Our freedom caused the actualization of hypothetical evil. God foreknew (in the parable) that humans would choose self actualization before they chose Jesus(Tree of Life) There will be no such battle in Heaven. The score is being settled here in this realm. Granted this is my own apologetic interpretation...im no Biblical scholar (Thank God!)

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 991 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 10:45 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 994 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 11:42 AM Phat has replied
 Message 998 by ringo, posted 01-19-2023 12:04 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 993 of 1864 (905169)
01-19-2023 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 982 by candle2
01-18-2023 12:35 PM


Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2 writes:
Ringo, you say that evolutionists do not deal with proof.
And, you are 100% right. There is no proof of evolution.
Science doesn't deal in proof, so there's no reason for science to have "proof" of evolution. Science also doesn't have "proof" of gravity. Ya know why? Because science doesn't deal in proof.
candle2 writes:
See, we agree.
Well, noi, we don't. You demanded proof for evolution, which means you don't know anything about science.
candle2 writes:
Evolutionists do not have evidence that creationists
don't have.
You have been lied to.
candle2 writes:
Everyone has access to the same evidence.
And you contradict yourself. How could they have "access" to the evidence if there was no evidence?
candle2 writes:
The interpretation is different.
And you don't understand what interpretation means.
Take the "Flood", for example. You CAN NOT interpret evidence of many small floods as evidence of one large flood. That isn't interpretation. That is fantasy.
candle2 writes:
In any event, evolutionists have faith, and nothing more,
that their views are right.
Nope. No faith. You have been lied to.
candle2 writes:
Judging by your posts and the evidence (be honest and
tell me how close I am) I say with 90% certainty that you
live in Canada.
I have said flat-out in many posts that I live in Canada. No miracle prognostication requitred.
candle2 writes:
80% certainty that you are female.
100% wrong.
candle2 writes:
85% certainty that you are between 75-80 years old.
100% wrong.
candle2 writes:
95% certainty that you believe in the existence of God...
100% wrong.
candle2 writes:
...but you try your best to deny this.
100% wrong. I don't try to deny the existence of God any more than you try to deny the existence of Quetzalcoatl.
candle2 writes:
Based on the available evidence how did I do.
Dismally. If you had actually looked at the "evidence available" (my 20,000 or so posts), you would have found most of the actual facts instead of making silly assumptions.
But you DON't look at the evidence. You only look up your ass, which is where your assumptions about evolution come from too.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 982 by candle2, posted 01-18-2023 12:35 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 994 of 1864 (905172)
01-19-2023 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 992 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:49 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Our freedom caused the actualization of hypothetical evil. God foreknew (in the parable) that humans would choose self actualization before they chose Jesus(Tree of Life) There will be no such battle in Heaven.
So people can't choose to do evil in heaven?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 992 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 995 by Theodoric, posted 01-19-2023 11:51 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 999 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 12:06 PM Taq has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 995 of 1864 (905174)
01-19-2023 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 994 by Taq
01-19-2023 11:42 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Why would anyone want to be a mindless zombie?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 11:42 AM Taq has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 996 of 1864 (905178)
01-19-2023 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 986 by Phat
01-18-2023 8:06 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
In another thread you even brought up Quatzechotal, for crying out loud!
No need to cry. What's wrong with Quetzalcoatl? Why can't Quetzalcoatl be another aspect of a multi-une god?
Phat writes:
You stubbornly clung to the fact that if the Creator allowed the "hole to be dug" by which people could fall into it, He was in fact evil.
Nothing "stubborn" about it. It's blindingly obvious. You never brought up a single coherent objection.
Phat writes:
So my basic belief, shared by Dr.Peter Kreeft, is that God initially only created the possibility of evil.
And your belief, along with Goober Kreeft, is still wrong. There is no difference between creating evil and creating the "possibility" of evil. Make an argument. Don't just repeat the same nonsense.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
I'm willing to give up the experience of war, famine, genocide, etc.
Some would agree, others wouldnt.
Go ahead and name twenty people who are not willing to give up the experience of war, famine, genocide, etc. I maintain that the jury is definitely NOT out on that.
Phat writes:
You mouth off to God more than I do...
You deny Jesus.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why couldn't God avoid creating evil by creating a world that didn't evolve?
Why not think about it for once?
I have thought about everything I talk about. That's why it's easy to rebut your so-called arguments.
Take your own advice.
Phat writes:
You claim that its all God fault according to Isaiah 45:7. In fact, here are several translations:
Disaster is evil. Calamity is evil. No difference after all.
Phat writes:
God takes full responsibility for all that Job has endured and nobody blames Satan.
That's what I keep telling you but you continue to pretend that Satan is the bad guy.
Phat writes:
You, on the other hand, have mentioned being Satans defense attorney!
And you contradict yourself AGAIN.
Phat writes:
The problem with the tree of knowledge is that people became more aware of themselves and less aware of God.
You're making that up. It says no such thing.
Phat writes:
Had they chosen the other tree ....
And it says nothing about choosing one tree or the other. They were forbidden from eating from ONE tree only.
Phat writes:
... they could have had Jesus...
Jesus didn't exist until thousands of years later.
Phat writes:
... but instead they chose the tree of self actualization.
Not "self-actualization". Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Phat writes:
And I like how you capitalize I AM. Did the snake teach you that?
He didn't need to. I know how to operate a keyboard.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 986 by Phat, posted 01-18-2023 8:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 997 of 1864 (905179)
01-19-2023 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 990 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:34 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
I was unaware that nobody has freedom *here*.
What I asked you was "Is there freedom in heaven Phat?" ie freedom to do evil in heaven. Is there?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 990 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:34 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1001 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 12:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 998 of 1864 (905181)
01-19-2023 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 992 by Phat
01-19-2023 10:49 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
God foreknew (in the parable) that humans would choose self actualization before they chose Jesus(Tree of Life)
What parable?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 992 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 10:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1000 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 12:07 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 999 of 1864 (905182)
01-19-2023 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 994 by Taq
01-19-2023 11:42 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Taq writes:
So people can't choose to do evil in heaven?
Satan got booted out of there for advocating the same thing. I would imagine that anyone who actually makes it to Heaven would be technically capable of but thoroughly unlikely to do or spread evil in Heaven. If they did, like the fallen angels before them they would get booted.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 11:42 AM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1000 of 1864 (905184)
01-19-2023 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 998 by ringo
01-19-2023 12:04 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Genesis. The tree(s). The snake. The nakedness. Surely you know of this parable.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 998 by ringo, posted 01-19-2023 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1002 by ringo, posted 01-19-2023 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1001 of 1864 (905185)
01-19-2023 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 997 by Tangle
01-19-2023 12:02 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
tangle writes:
What I asked you was "Is there freedom in heaven Phat?" ie freedom to do evil in heaven. Is there?
First off, technically none of us know. But we can speculate.
To begin with, what is the definition of evil?
Second, what is the definition (and social and spiritual parameters) of such a place?
Third, Who is in charge?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2023 12:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1003 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2023 12:29 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1002 of 1864 (905187)
01-19-2023 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1000 by Phat
01-19-2023 12:07 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Genesis. The tree(s). The snake. The nakedness. Surely you know of this parable.
Since when is it a parable? You seem to think that Adam and Eve and the snake were real.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1000 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 12:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1003 of 1864 (905193)
01-19-2023 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1001 by Phat
01-19-2023 12:09 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
First off ...etc
I think you're avoiding the question. It's a philosophical question Phat.
The explanation often given by apologists for the existence of evil here on earth (define it anyway you like, it doesn't matter) is free will. They say that God could not create a place where people could only be good - free will means the ability to chose to do both good and evil. So evil must exist.
So I asked you whether people in heaven have free will? Heaven is a place were people live happily ever after so how can evil exist there?
if evil doesn't exist there, why can't it not exist here? Apparently god CAN create a place without evil.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1001 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 12:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1004 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 2:42 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1004 of 1864 (905202)
01-19-2023 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1003 by Tangle
01-19-2023 12:29 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
if evil doesn't exist there, why can it not exist here?
Because we have willfully allowed it. God respects our free will so much that He won't simply take the evil away from us. We allowed it in. We must push it out. Of course, we are also free enough to choose to ask Him to help. He won't do it all, however.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1003 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2023 12:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1005 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 3:02 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1009 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2023 5:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1005 of 1864 (905204)
01-19-2023 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1004 by Phat
01-19-2023 2:42 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Because we have willfully allowed it. God respects our free will so much that He won't simply take the evil away from us.
Why couldn't we willfully allow it in heaven?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1004 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 2:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1006 by Phat, posted 01-19-2023 4:01 PM Taq has replied

  
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