Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:The experimental evidence actually contradicts his beliefs so he figures if he acts like a chimpanzee and throws some poop around that it will make his belief system seem more real.
Dredge:That's a bit different, I suppose - Darwinists usually throw bullshit around.
Most biologists have no idea what Darwinian Evolution is. In fact, most people don't understand what Darwinian Evolution is. In a sense, I would consider myself a Darwinist because I think that Darwin gives is a correct qualitative understanding of biological evolution. But I also consider myself a Creationist because I know how to quantify (do the mathematics) of Darwinian Evolution. I wrote a short paper that is easy to understand and explains the physics of Darwinian Evolution.
The Physics of Darwinian Evolution Take a look at that paper and tell me what you think.
Tanypteryx:Kleinman's equal.
Dredge:You must be joking. I'm nowhere near Kleinman's equal - he's much, much smarter than I am.
Don't underestimate yourself. I happen to know something about biological evolution because I have a professional and spiritual interest in the subject. My professional interest is that I have had to deal many times with drug-resistant infections in my medical practice. My spiritual interest is because I happen to believe in the Bible and claims about evolution appear to show the Bible is wrong. My training and experience in engineering have given me the scientific tools to investigate this phenomenon in a way biologists are not trained. It wasn't my plan to do this when I decided to study medicine but Proverbs 16:9 tells this story for my life. God gives us all gifts. Try to know what these gifts are and exercise them for His purposes.
Dredge:Homer Simpson makes more sense than your average Darwinist.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:I'm nowhere near Kleinman's equal
Tanypteryx:And yet you both use the same playbook for your style of argument.
Tany, your problem is that your playbook is 40 years old. We're now in the era of DNA sequencing. Why don't you send a sample of your DNA and a chimp's DNA to ancestry.com and see if you are related?
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:Tany, your problem is that your playbook is 40 years old.
Tanypteryx:Kleiny, your problem is you think magic explains the the genetic relationships of life on this planet.
Don't be silly Tany, physics, and mathematics isn't magic. These are the tools that scientists use to explain the phenomena that surround us. You should learn something about these subjects. It isn't that hard, it just requires some study and practice.
Kleinman:Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment
Tanypteryx:Why would I want to?
Because the Desai experiment is similiar to the Lenski experiment except using yeast, some of which are diploid sexual replicators. Don't you have any interest in descent with modification?
Tanypteryx:Perhaps you can explain the patterns of endogenous retroviral insertions in human and chimp genomes.
Why, is that an example of descent with modification? I could speculate like the fossil tea-leaf readers and say that perhaps humans and chimps can be infected by the same retroviruses.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:And the problem with this covid vaccination episode is the sloppy job of creating ineffective vaccines with incomplete testing, in an environment of fear caused by politicians and pharmaceutical companies for their own gains and very poor expert advice on the purpose and the way vaccines work.
Dredge:I had my two Moderna vaccine shots 12 months ago and I still occasionally feel ill from them. For about the first eight months, I felt sick, dizzy, short of breath and fatigued just about every day. A nasty experience.
As a physician, I'm a big fan of vaccination based on the success with polio, small pox, hepatitis B, measles, tetanus,... There is always a risk when using vaccines but you hope the benefit far outweighs the risk. The problem with the Covid vaccines was they were rolled out in a way that precluded thorough testing and evaluation and it turns out that they don't work well. In my continuing medical education, I do studies in pulmonary and critical care. It isn't rare when cases are presented with patients that are fully vaccinated but still end up in the intensive care unit with Covid. Even Joe Biden has gotten Covid multiple times. The pharmaceutical companies still made a fortune off the sale of these vaccines.
Dredge:I prefer to believe that humans did not evolve but were created as per Genesis 2:7, about 10,000 years ago. As for non-human life, I think it has been around for much longer than that, as the fossil record and geology suggest. However, I don't believe Darwinian theory describes the process responsible for producing the history of life on earth.
I think the Biblical creation story is far more reasonable than the primordial soup to the nuts we see today that biologists like to tell.
As far as the age of the earth goes, not my area of study, but I do think that finding soft tissue in dinosaur fossils should bring into question the aging techniques paleontologists use.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:As a physician, I'm a big fan of vaccination based on the success with polio, small pox, hepatitis B, measles, tetanus ...
Dredge:Don't get me wrong ... I'm not anti-vaccination in the least. One only has to look at the numbers to see how amazingly beneficial vaccination has been to mankind. I've had some very weird and inexplicable things going on with my health for decades, which I attribute to my bad experience with the Covid vaccine.
There's a saying that I learned early in my medical studies, "Every medicine is a little bit of poison". Sometimes medicines can be very toxic, I've seen it happen. Sadly, iatrogenic disease is a lot more common than you might expect. Vaccines are designed to trigger the immune system. If you are still feeling ill and you think it is due to the vaccine, you should tell your primary care doctor and ask to see an allergist/immunologist.
Kleinman:In a sense, I would consider myself a Darwinist because I think that Darwin gives is a correct qualitative understanding of biological evolution.
Dredge:I think Darwinian theory works fine when describing what I call empirical evolution - ie, evolution that can be directly observed in real time - eg, drug resistance.
Darwinian evolution works fine for describing "microevolution". Where biologists bungle the mathematics of Darwinian evolution is when they claim that a series of microevolutionary events add up to macroevolutionary change. What biologists don't understand is that microevolutionary events are random events. The joint probability of random adaptive evolutionary events doesn't add, you must multiply their probabilities. That's why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony experiment. Here's a video that demonstrates that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irnc6w_Gsas&t=67s&ab_chan... This is why the fossil record should be loaded with transitional forms because each adaptive step takes a billion replications and that's under the best of circumstances.
Dredge:But as for describing the history of life on earth and the appearance of novel organs and body plans, I think Darwinian theory is childishly simplistic and has proven thoroughly inadequate.
Darwin's explanation is very simple but so is Newton's F=ma equation. When one does the mathematics of Darwinian evolution correctly, one can correctly predict the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail. It also shows why the idea of universal common descent is nonsense.
Dredge:By "Darwinist", I refer to someone who believes the history life on earth (including man) is the result of a purely biological process that proceeded according to Darwinian theory. So your average Western atheist qualifies as a "Darwinist" (whose devotion to Darwinism is typically total, blind, fanatical and quasi-religous).
I get it, certain words like "evolution", and "Darwin", are hot button words. But the problem in the theory of evolution is in the concept of universal common descent. You can see it in the posts from ringo. He tries to make me into an "evolution denier" because I think that the concept of universal common descent is mathematically irrational nonsense. I try to be precise with my terminology since I think that biological competition and descent with modification occur. I then put mathematical precision to this argument and correlate and substantiate that math with experimental and empirical evidence. That's a product of my engineering training and experience. I've met very few biologists that know how to do this kind of scientific analysis. They should take a couple of engineering courses and learn how to do this but they won't pass with their survey of physics and survey of mathematics as preparation.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment
Tanypteryx:Why would I want to?
Kleinman:Because the Desai experiment is similiar to the Lenski experiment except using yeast, some of which are diploid sexual replicators. Don't you have any interest in descent with modification?
Tanypteryx:Nope, I'm not interested in experiments with yeast or bacteria. The Desai and Lenski bacteria and yeast experiments don't tell me anything about descent with modification of Calopteryx aequabilis or Hetaerina americana.
My, my, Tany thinks that DNA evolution works differently for insects than it does for yeast.
Tanypteryx:Perhaps you can explain the patterns of endogenous retroviral insertions in human and chimp genomes.
Kleinman:Why, is that an example of descent with modification? I could speculate like the fossil tea-leaf readers and say that perhaps humans and chimps can be infected by the same retroviruses.
Tanypteryx:I didn't say anything about descent with modification in Message 427. Apparently you are confused about the patterns of ERVs. Chimps and humans have some ERVs that are in identical points in both species' genomes even though the points endogenous retroviruses insert are random, so they must have been inherited from a common ancestor. Both genomes also have sets of ERVs that do not match, so they were obviously inserted after the two lineages separated. I am saying the matching ERVs in the 2 species are evidence of descent from a common ancestor, and the non-matching ERVs are evidence of descent with modification.
What's the matter Tany, have you run out of all 1 of your so-called transitional fossils? Do you want to explain to us how a retrovirus in a somatic cell gets into a gamete? Do you have any idea what a virus does to the early differentiation of a stem cell line? And are you claiming that these retroviruses somehow alter the reproductive fitness of either humans or chimpanzees? Do you know that humans and chimpanzees produce identical insulin?
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:How do you know that the differences in phenotype you are seeing are due to recombination rather than DNA evolution?
ringo:Ask a biologist. Thousands of them have been working for centuries fitting every living thing into a nested hierarchy. They started doing that long before they knew much about DNA. FYI, the nested hierarchy demonstrates who is related to whom.
ringo, we are in the era of DNA identification. Try and keep up.
Kleinman:The point is that you can't use gross anatomy to explain descent with modification.
ringo:Tell it to a biologist. They were doing it long before they know much about DNA.
That's like using phrenology to determine mental traits. But if you think you can explain the Kishony, Lenski, or Desai experiments using gross anatomy, amuse yourself.
Kleinman:That process has to be measured at the molecular level by DNA sequencing.
ringo:And yet they did it without knowing much about DNA. You might as well be saying that you can't fly an airplane without understanding jet propulsion.
So explain to us DNA evolution using gross anatomy. I like hearing a good fairytale.
Kleinman:Sadly, those examples are the results of real-world experiments.
ringo:Sadly for YOU, yes, because those seem to be the only experiments you know about. Somebody - it might have been Jed Clampett - used to say, "When he tells you howdy, he's told you everything he knows."
ringo:I asked you for an alternative explanation. Are you saying that evolution only happens within "kinds"?
Kleinman:Whether you want to use the word "species" or "kind", you have a mathematical and empirical problem with your idea of universal common descent.
ringo:1. "I" or "we" do not have a mathematical problem. YOU have a mathematical problem. 2. "I" or "we" do not have an empirical problem. YOU have a problem understanding that the Kishony and Lenski experiments do not define all of biology. (Do Kishony and Lenski even agree with your claims about them?) 3. It isn't "my" idea of universal common descent. It's the idea of practically every biol;ogist on earth. (And the alien biologists whose Petrie dishes we occupy agree with us too.) 4. It's becoming fairly clear that you ARE trying to push that evolution-only-within-kinds crap. It has no basis in biology (which is why you denigrate biologists) and it has no basis in the Bible either.
I keep forgetting that I'm debating with the mathematically challenged who can't figure out the relationship between mutation rate, population size and the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring. If the math doesn't make sense to you, I'll make it simple enought for a layman or biologist to understand.
Kleinman:At least I understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution...
ringo:And you claim that biologists don't. Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ability to repeat "Kishony and Lenski" in every sentence.
It's Kishony, Lenski, and Desai now. When are biologists going to post their mathematical explanation of these experiments? We are waiting.
Kleinman:Perhaps in a couple more generations biologists will figure this out....
ringo:Don't be too optimistic about how soon they will catch up with you.
Just change the curriculum for biologists from the survey of math and the survey of physics to mathematics and physics for science majors and it might happen sooner.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion.
ringo:You could have stopped at, "I don't know." That summarizes everything you've posted here.
We are all impressed with how clever you are. Now, why don't you apply some of that cleverness and learn some physics and mathematics and give us a correct explanation for descent with modification? There is no social promotion here.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:I prefer to believe that humans did not evolve but were created as per Genesis 2:7, about 10,000 years ago.
ringo:You can prefer whatever flavor of ice cream you want. Just don't pretend that science confirms your preference. ABE: And you just admitted to being a YEC.
Tell us how life started in the primordial soup. Never mind, you can't even explain how descent with modification works. And that's a real thing.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:I think the Biblical creation story is far more reasonable than the primordial soup to the nuts we see today that biologists like to tell.
ringo:So let's see you use mathematics and physics to confirm the Bible story.
That's an easy one. You have three possibilities, 1. panspermia, 2. abiogenesis then descent with modification, and 3. We were created. 1. panspermia-still have a problem with how life arose on the planet Krypton and how did that life get to earth. 2. abiogenesis then descent with modification-chemistry, physics, and math doesn't work 3. we were created-only possibility remaining and can't be disproved
quote:We found that myocarditis was the most commonly reported adverse cardiac event associated with mRNA COVID-19 vaccines, which presented as chest pain with a rise in cardiac biomarkers. Further large-scale observational studies are recommended.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:ringo, we are in the era of DNA identification.
ringo:But universal common descent was well understood since long before we knoew anything about DNA. And DNA has only confirmed universal common descent.
Really? Biologists understand that it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutational transition? How did biologists figure that out by reading fossil tea leaves?
ringo:Tell it to a biologist. They were doing it long before they know much about DNA.
Kleinman:That's like using phrenology to determine mental traits.
ringo:Not at all. Phrenology has been discredited scientifically; universal common descent has not. (You can't cherry-pick one scientific conclusion to deny another.)
Biologists have not figured out why biological competition slows descent with modification. That's why there are no papers by biologists that correctly explain the Kishony, Lenski, or Desai experiments. Where's the biologist's mathematical model of random recombination? I have the whole tree, I have all the cherries.
Kleinman:But if you think you can explain the Kishony, Lenski, or Desai experiments using gross anatomy, amuse yourself.
ringo:If Kishony, Lenski or Desai agree with your conclusions, go ahead and show us.
You ask them if my math is correct or not. I published the math that explains the Kishony experiment before it was performed and I've explained to Lenski why competition slows adaptation in his experiment. If they won't admit it publicly whether I'm correct or not is not my choice.
Kleinman:So explain to us DNA evolution using gross anatomy.
ringo:No need. DNA has confirmed the nested hierarchy that was initially determined using gross anatomy.
Oh really? Post a few examples of how that has been done.
Kleinman:I like hearing a good fairytale.
ringo:Then you should stick to listening and not try to tell your own.
So you think that drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments are fairytales? Is it the intent of biologists to give sad endings to those stories? It certainly seems so.
Kleinman:You asked for a biological evolutionary experiment with sexual replicators...
ringo:No I didn't. I asked for the second-and-third-best experimental examples that confirm your conclusion.
Why are you ignoring the Desai experiment?
Kleinman:If the math doesn't make sense to you, I'll make it simple enought for a layman or biologist to understand.
ringo:I've told you repeatedly that your math is irrelevant. I know you're trying to steer the discussion back toward your math but we're past that now. You might think you've invented the best mousetrap ever but nobody is buying it, so we're not interested in discussing your design.
There you go! Your idea of science is no math, no physics. The reading of fossil tea-leaves tells it all.
Kleinman:It's Kishony, Lenski, and Desai now.
ringo:I'm sure Desai is tickled pink to be included.
quote:As human health is increasingly threatened by emerging pathogens, multidrug-resistant infections, and therapy-evading cancer cells, our understanding of the dynamics and predictability of evolution is of growing importance. Yet predicting the course of evolution is difficult, since it is driven by a complex combination of deterministic and stochastic forces.
Why don't you solve this problem with your fossil tea-leaf reading?
Kleinman:When are biologists going to post their mathematical explanation of these experiments?
ringo:I'm on pins and needles waiting for biologists to confirm your conclusions. When thet do, I'll take you seriously.
Why don't you get off your pins and needles and do it yourself?
Kleinman:Just change the curriculum for biologists ...
ringo:Yeah, I'll get right on that.
Just imagine what those two selection pressures would do to the population of biology students. That would be a real sixth extinction.
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