Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge:I'm willing to accept the evidence that suggests the earth is billions of years old ... but as for when life on earth began, I'm not sure what to think.
Did you hear the joke about the tour guide at the natural history museum?
He comes to the dinosaur skeleton and says to the crowd, "this dinosaur skeleton is one million and six years old!" One of the people in the crowd is incredulous and says to the tour guide, "How do you know this dinosaur skeleton is one million and SIX years old?" The tour guide says, "I came to work here six years ago and the dinosaur skeleton was a million years old then!"
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:Darwin got some things right. It is universal common descent that doesn't fit in the theory of evolution.
Dredge:Agreed. Useful Darwinian facts evolved into useless Darwinian fantasies.
That's why, in my opinion, you should try and be precise when debating or discussing these issues. The reason why there is an upheaval in evolutionary theory is that experiments such as Kishony's and Lenski's are bringing into focus the different variables associated with biological evolution. Biologists are starting to get the hint that something is wrong with their worldview. This forum is loaded with zealots that are posters but there are always a lot more visitors than there are posters.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:It takes a long time to get sufficient mastery of physics and mathematics and biological systems to do this kind of mathematical modeling.
Dredge:Ya got that right ... that stuff passes so far above my head I don't even see it! You're a very clever man.
I'm really not clever. God gave me the gift of doing mathematics. It was clear at a young age and as I got older, I became a better student. And then God gives me the solutions to complex problems in dreams. It is really incredible. Psalm 127:2 has real meaning for me.
This stuff isn't going over your head, you already sense that biologists are doing something wrong. Your gift probably isn't mathematics but you understand that your chance of winning two lotteries is much lower than winning one lottery. And look at someone like nwr. He claims to be a mathematician and this really does go way over his head. It's the blind leading the blind. I hope you are learning and enjoying this conversation. Of course, the zealots on this forum aren't enjoying it.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:If there is going to be any chance of an interesting discussion on this topic, it might come from Tanypteryx.
ringo:I agree, but he seems to be bored with your nonsense. (And he's one of my biggest fans.)
More likely Tany can't explain his claim about ERVs. But if Tany quits this discussion, it will be for the same reason that Taq quit and that wasn't boredom.
And Tany must like the way the C- team plays if he is a fan of yours. So post away and fill space until Tany posts something interesting about ERVs which I highly doubt.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:But if Tany quits this discussion, it will be for the same reason that Taq quit and that wasn't boredom.
ringo:Well, your wishful thinking won't get rid of me. You can run but you can't hide.
I'm not trying to get rid of you ringo. I'm just waiting for you to say something interesting.
Phat didn't write:And Tany must like the way the C- team plays if he is a fan of yours.
ringo:Nice sports analogy. I may not be in the major leagues but youre playing tee-ball.
Why not try and tee something interesting up for us? And you aren't in any league, you are a spectator in the peanut gallery. That's your cue to fill space.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:I'm just waiting for you to say something interesting.
ringo:While you're waiting, you could answer some of your unanswered posts. I count about ten different topics that you've missed answering.
Jame Tour does a much better job describing why abiogenesis is not possible. He teaches a course on it. Here is a short summary video he made on the subject.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
AZPaul3:Arvin Ash does a excellent job describing why abiogenesis is the probable venue for life.
Ash fails to address Tour's argument about chirality and chemical reactions of amino acids (binding at incorrect locations on the molecule) and clearly doesn't understand how descent with modification works when he discusses evolution in his video. We have experiments that demonstrate how descent with modification works, we don't have any experiments that demonstrate abiogenesis.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
ringo:Only to somebody who is totally ignorant of chemistry.
Dredge:When confronted by the scientific impossibility of abiogenesis, atheists panick and slip into a state clinically delusional, then find a dark room and collapse into a fetal position until the fear and madness subside.
ringo is not a biologist and so far, he hasn't demonstrated he has had any training in chemistry let alone organic chemistry. If he had, he would know how difficult it is to synthesize even simple organic molecules, and that's under laboratory conditions. These zealots won't discuss experiments that demonstrate how descent with modification works but love to discuss experiments that don't demonstrate abiogenesis.
Kleinman:Ash fails to address Tour's argument about chirality and ...
AZPaul3:One. Chirality is another made up creationist lie. It is no impediment to abiogenesis. Of the dozen or dozen thousand abiogenic events on this planet only the one prospered. That’s all it takes to solve the problem.
AZPaul3:Chirality. Yep, that's what it is. Just what I said. Did you read and understand the words or were you looking at the pretty pictures? You just posted the wiki to show how right I was. Thanx.
quote:All of the known life-forms show specific chiral properties in chemical structures as well as macroscopic anatomy, development and behavior.[26] In any specific organism or evolutionarily related set thereof, individual compounds, organs, or behavior are found in the same single enantiomorphic form. Deviation (having the opposite form) could be found in a small number of chemical compounds, or certain organ or behavior but that variation strictly depends upon the genetic make up of the organism. From chemical level (molecular scale), biological systems show extreme stereospecificity in synthesis, uptake, sensing, metabolic processing. A living system usually deals with two enantiomers of the same compound in drastically different ways.
AZPaul3:BTW, you have a religion addiction.
So, how much time do biologists need in the lab in order for you to win your bet with Dredge?
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:Jame Tour does a much better job describing why abiogenesis is not possible.
ringo:What I said was: "While you're waiting, you could answer some of your unanswered posts. I count about ten different topics that you've missed answering." This topic is not about abiogenesis. Start an appropriate topic.
What have you said that was interesting in any of your previous posts? And why should I start a topic on abiogenesis where you don't have any experiments that demonstrate this? You won't discuss descent with modification when we do have experiments that demonstrate that phenomenon.
Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:What have you said that was interesting in any of your previous posts?
ringo:You've said twice that you were impressed by my attention to detail - so it's a little late now to start pretending that you're not interested in what I say.
Just because you are a nitpicker doesn't make you interesting. That's not the kind of thing that makes me a fan of yours. Try posting something interesting.
Kleinman:And why should I start a topic on abiogenesis where you don't have any experiments that demonstrate this?
ringo:How would you know what I have in support of abiogenesis? If you're not afraid to find out, start a topic.
Tell it to the biologists so that AZPaul3 can have a chance to win his bet with Dredge. I wouldn't count on this AZPaul3. And AZPaul3, I suggest you lay off the vino. It's affecting your ability to perceive reality.
Kleinman:You won't discuss descent with modification when we do have experiments that demonstrate that phenomenon.
ringo:But I HAVE been discussing that. Sixty-four posts in this very thread, and counting. And you've QUOTED some of them. Try to maintain at least a thin fiber of connection to reality. And YOU are the one who is trying to divert the discussion to off-topic abiogenesis.
Sixty-four posts filling space, are you trying to set a record? And have you noticed that Tany doesn't explain his claim about endogenous retroviruses? Why don't you start a topic on abiogenesis? If you can come up with something interesting, perhaps I'll comment. I like surprises.
AZPaul3:Do you know what that quote says? It doesn't say what you think it says. Think of a whole world of life all made from the same physical makeup. That is what we have. All of life, with few exceptions, none significant, is chemically compatible because this system was the one that prospered and diversified on this planet.
quote:In chemical synthesis of enantiomeric substances, non-enantiomeric precursors inevitably produce racemic mixtures. In the absence of an effective enantiomeric environment (precursor, chiral catalyst, or kinetic resolution), separation of a racemic mixture into its enantiomeric components is impossible, although certain racemic mixtures spontaneously crystallize in the form of a racemic conglomerate, in which crystals of the enantiomers are physically segregated and may be separated mechanically (e.g., the enantiomers of tartaric acid, whose crystallized enantiomers were separated with tweezers by Pasteur). However, most racemates will crystallize in crystals containing both enantiomers in a 1:1 ratio, arranged in a regular lattice.
Wikipedia:In the absence of an effective enantiomeric environment (precursor, chiral catalyst, or kinetic resolution), separation of a racemic mixture into its enantiomeric components is impossible,...
AZPaul3:Before you quote at me be sure you understand the topic. You missed this part in your comprehension. We have an effective enantiomeric environment. Our internal chemistry. The inner workings of all life on this planet.
Oh, now I get your argument. Abiogenesis occurs by "our internal chemistry", "the inner workings of all life on this planet".
This is why I have no interest in starting a new topic on abiogenesis. Does any other of the C- team want to try and explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutational step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
Kleinman:Does any other of the C- team want to try and explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutational step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
AZPaul3:Why? It's been done to death and you lost, again.
Tell that to Taq and Tany. The difference between you and them is that they know enough about the subject to know they are wrong. You don't.
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