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Author | Topic: Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dredge Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Tanypteryx writes:
I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion.
And yet you both use the same playbook for your style of argument.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Just imagine what a family picture would look like on his living room wall.
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Dredge Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
I had my two Moderna vaccine shots 12 months ago and I still occasionally feel ill from them. For about the first eight months, I felt sick, dizzy, short of breath and fatigued just about every day. A nasty experience.
And the problem with this covid vaccination episode is the sloppy job of creating ineffective vaccines with incomplete testing, in an environment of fear caused by politicians and pharmaceutical companies for their own gains and very poor expert advice on the purpose and the way vaccines work.
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Dredge Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
I prefer to believe that humans did not evolve but were created as per Genesis 2:7, about 10,000 years ago.
As for non-human life, I think it has been around for much longer than that, as the fossil record and geology suggest. However, I don't believe Darwinian theory describes the process responsible for producing the history of life on earth.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Sorry Tany, I missed your Message 427
Kleinman:Because the Desai experiment is similiar to the Lenski experiment except using yeast, some of which are diploid sexual replicators. Don't you have any interest in descent with modification? Tanypteryx:Why, is that an example of descent with modification? I could speculate like the fossil tea-leaf readers and say that perhaps humans and chimps can be infected by the same retroviruses.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:As a physician, I'm a big fan of vaccination based on the success with polio, small pox, hepatitis B, measles, tetanus,... There is always a risk when using vaccines but you hope the benefit far outweighs the risk. The problem with the Covid vaccines was they were rolled out in a way that precluded thorough testing and evaluation and it turns out that they don't work well. In my continuing medical education, I do studies in pulmonary and critical care. It isn't rare when cases are presented with patients that are fully vaccinated but still end up in the intensive care unit with Covid. Even Joe Biden has gotten Covid multiple times. The pharmaceutical companies still made a fortune off the sale of these vaccines. Dredge:I think the Biblical creation story is far more reasonable than the primordial soup to the nuts we see today that biologists like to tell. As far as the age of the earth goes, not my area of study, but I do think that finding soft tissue in dinosaur fossils should bring into question the aging techniques paleontologists use.
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Dredge Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
Don't get me wrong ... I'm not anti-vaccination in the least. One only has to look at the numbers to see how amazingly beneficial vaccination has been to mankind. As a physician, I'm a big fan of vaccination based on the success with polio, small pox, hepatitis B, measles, tetanus ... I've had some very weird and inexplicable things going on with my health for decades, which I attribute to my bad experience with the Covid vaccine.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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I've had some very weird and inexplicable things going on with my health for decades, which I attribute to my bad experience with the Covid vaccine. And you wonder why we laugh at you and your stupid. Since the covid vax is all of 3 years old you might want to look to some other cause of your decades long health problems. This is so much beyond dumb. You're comatose.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Dredge Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
I think Darwinian theory works fine when describing what I call empirical evolution - ie, evolution that can be directly observed in real time - eg, drug resistance. In a sense, I would consider myself a Darwinist because I think that Darwin gives is a correct qualitative understanding of biological evolution. But as for describing the history of life on earth and the appearance of novel organs and body plans, I think Darwinian theory is childishly simplistic and has proven thoroughly inadequate. By "Darwinist", I refer to someone who believes the history life on earth (including man) is the result of a purely biological process that proceeded according to Darwinian theory. So your average Western atheist qualifies as a "Darwinist" (whose devotion to Darwinism is typically total, blind, fanatical and quasi-religous).
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Kleinman writes:
Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment
Tanypteryx writes:
Because the Desai experiment is similiar to the Lenski experiment except using yeast, some of which are diploid sexual replicators. Don't you have any interest in descent with modification?
Why would I want to? Nope, I'm not interested in experiments with yeast or bacteria. The Desai and Lenski bacteria and yeast experiments don't tell me anything about descent with modification of Calopteryx aequabilis or Hetaerina americana. Kleinman writes: Tanypteryx writes:
Why, is that an example of descent with modification? I could speculate like the fossil tea-leaf readers and say that perhaps humans and chimps can be infected by the same retroviruses.
Perhaps you can explain the patterns of endogenous retroviral insertions in human and chimp genomes. I didn't say anything about descent with modification in Message 427. Apparently you are confused about the patterns of ERVs. Chimps and humans have some ERVs that are in identical points in both species' genomes even though the points endogenous retroviruses insert are random, so they must have been inherited from a common ancestor. Both genomes also have sets of ERVs that do not match, so they were obviously inserted after the two lineages separated. I am saying the matching ERVs in the 2 species are evidence of descent from a common ancestor, and the non-matching ERVs are evidence of descent with modification.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:There's a saying that I learned early in my medical studies, "Every medicine is a little bit of poison". Sometimes medicines can be very toxic, I've seen it happen. Sadly, iatrogenic disease is a lot more common than you might expect. Vaccines are designed to trigger the immune system. If you are still feeling ill and you think it is due to the vaccine, you should tell your primary care doctor and ask to see an allergist/immunologist. Kleinman:Darwinian evolution works fine for describing "microevolution". Where biologists bungle the mathematics of Darwinian evolution is when they claim that a series of microevolutionary events add up to macroevolutionary change. What biologists don't understand is that microevolutionary events are random events. The joint probability of random adaptive evolutionary events doesn't add, you must multiply their probabilities. That's why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony experiment. Here's a video that demonstrates that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irnc6w_Gsas&t=67s&ab_chan... This is why the fossil record should be loaded with transitional forms because each adaptive step takes a billion replications and that's under the best of circumstances. Dredge:Darwin's explanation is very simple but so is Newton's F=ma equation. When one does the mathematics of Darwinian evolution correctly, one can correctly predict the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail. It also shows why the idea of universal common descent is nonsense. Dredge:I get it, certain words like "evolution", and "Darwin", are hot button words. But the problem in the theory of evolution is in the concept of universal common descent. You can see it in the posts from ringo. He tries to make me into an "evolution denier" because I think that the concept of universal common descent is mathematically irrational nonsense. I try to be precise with my terminology since I think that biological competition and descent with modification occur. I then put mathematical precision to this argument and correlate and substantiate that math with experimental and empirical evidence. That's a product of my engineering training and experience. I've met very few biologists that know how to do this kind of scientific analysis. They should take a couple of engineering courses and learn how to do this but they won't pass with their survey of physics and survey of mathematics as preparation.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
Kleinman asked me a question that made no sense and I explained why it made no sense. How is that dodging? ... a vain attempt to dodge the question."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Kleinman writes:
Ask a biologist. Thousands of them have been working for centuries fitting every living thing into a nested hierarchy. They started doing that long before they knew much about DNA. FYI, the nested hierarchy demonstrates who is related to whom.
How do you know that the differences in phenotype you are seeing are due to recombination rather than DNA evolution? Kleinman writes:
Tell it to a biologist. They were doing it long before they know much about DNA.
The point is that you can't use gross anatomy to explain descent with modification. Kleinman writes:
And yet they did it without knowing much about DNA. You might as well be saying that you can't fly an airplane without understanding jet propulsion.
That process has to be measured at the molecular level by DNA sequencing. Kleinman writes:
Sadly for YOU, yes, because those seem to be the only experiments you know about. Somebody - it might have been Jed Clampett - used to say, "When he tells you howdy, he's told you everything he knows."
Sadly, those examples are the results of real-world experiments. Kleinman writes:
1. "I" or "we" do not have a mathematical problem. YOU have a mathematical problem. ringo writes:
Whether you want to use the word "species" or "kind", you have a mathematical and empirical problem with your idea of universal common descent. I asked you for an alternative explanation. Are you saying that evolution only happens within "kinds"?2. "I" or "we" do not have an empirical problem. YOU have a problem understanding that the Kishony and Lenski experiments do not define all of biology. (Do Kishony and Lenski even agree with your claims about them?) 3. It isn't "my" idea of universal common descent. It's the idea of practically every biol;ogist on earth. (And the alien biologists whose Petrie dishes we occupy agree with us too.) 4. It's becoming fairly clear that you ARE trying to push that evolution-only-within-kinds crap. It has no basis in biology (which is why you denigrate biologists) and it has no basis in the Bible either. Kleinman writes:
And you claim that biologists don't. Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ability to repeat "Kishony and Lenski" in every sentence.
At least I understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution... Kleinman writes:
Don't be too optimistic about how soon they will catch up with you. Perhaps in a couple more generations biologists will figure this out...."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
You could have stopped at, "I don't know." That summarizes everything you've posted here. I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
You can prefer whatever flavor of ice cream you want. Just don't pretend that science confirms your preference. I prefer to believe that humans did not evolve but were created as per Genesis 2:7, about 10,000 years ago. ABE: And you just admitted to being a YEC."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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