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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 436 of 2926 (899587)
10-16-2022 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 429 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 10:06 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tanypteryx writes:
And yet you both use the same playbook for your style of argument.
I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 10:06 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 2:37 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 437 of 2926 (899588)
10-16-2022 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by Dredge
10-16-2022 11:37 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Why don't you send a sample of your DNA and a chimp's DNA to ancestry.com and see if you are related?
Dredge:
Great idea. The results would be very interesting.

Just imagine what a family picture would look like on his living room wall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 11:37 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 12:18 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 438 of 2926 (899590)
10-16-2022 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 8:10 AM


Re: Science is full of pseudoscience
Kleinman writes:
And the problem with this covid vaccination episode is the sloppy job of creating ineffective vaccines with incomplete testing, in an environment of fear caused by politicians and pharmaceutical companies for their own gains and very poor expert advice on the purpose and the way vaccines work.
I had my two Moderna vaccine shots 12 months ago and I still occasionally feel ill from them. For about the first eight months, I felt sick, dizzy, short of breath and fatigued just about every day. A nasty experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 8:10 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 439 of 2926 (899591)
10-16-2022 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 11:57 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
I prefer to believe that humans did not evolve but were created as per Genesis 2:7, about 10,000 years ago.
As for non-human life, I think it has been around for much longer than that, as the fossil record and geology suggest. However, I don't believe Darwinian theory describes the process responsible for producing the history of life on earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 11:57 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:37 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 450 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 2:39 PM Dredge has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 440 of 2926 (899592)
10-16-2022 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 9:53 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Sorry Tany, I missed your Message 427
Kleinman:
Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment
Tanypteryx:
Why would I want to?

Because the Desai experiment is similiar to the Lenski experiment except using yeast, some of which are diploid sexual replicators. Don't you have any interest in descent with modification?
Tanypteryx:
Perhaps you can explain the patterns of endogenous retroviral insertions in human and chimp genomes.
Why, is that an example of descent with modification? I could speculate like the fossil tea-leaf readers and say that perhaps humans and chimps can be infected by the same retroviruses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 9:53 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 1:46 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 441 of 2926 (899593)
10-16-2022 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by Dredge
10-16-2022 12:18 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
And the problem with this covid vaccination episode is the sloppy job of creating ineffective vaccines with incomplete testing, in an environment of fear caused by politicians and pharmaceutical companies for their own gains and very poor expert advice on the purpose and the way vaccines work.
Dredge:
I had my two Moderna vaccine shots 12 months ago and I still occasionally feel ill from them. For about the first eight months, I felt sick, dizzy, short of breath and fatigued just about every day. A nasty experience.

As a physician, I'm a big fan of vaccination based on the success with polio, small pox, hepatitis B, measles, tetanus,... There is always a risk when using vaccines but you hope the benefit far outweighs the risk. The problem with the Covid vaccines was they were rolled out in a way that precluded thorough testing and evaluation and it turns out that they don't work well. In my continuing medical education, I do studies in pulmonary and critical care. It isn't rare when cases are presented with patients that are fully vaccinated but still end up in the intensive care unit with Covid. Even Joe Biden has gotten Covid multiple times. The pharmaceutical companies still made a fortune off the sale of these vaccines.
Dredge:
I prefer to believe that humans did not evolve but were created as per Genesis 2:7, about 10,000 years ago.

As for non-human life, I think it has been around for much longer than that, as the fossil record and geology suggest. However, I don't believe Darwinian theory describes the process responsible for producing the history of life on earth.
I think the Biblical creation story is far more reasonable than the primordial soup to the nuts we see today that biologists like to tell.
As far as the age of the earth goes, not my area of study, but I do think that finding soft tissue in dinosaur fossils should bring into question the aging techniques paleontologists use.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 12:18 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 12:49 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 451 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 2:43 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 499 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 9:16 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 442 of 2926 (899595)
10-16-2022 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 12:37 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
As a physician, I'm a big fan of vaccination based on the success with polio, small pox, hepatitis B, measles, tetanus ...
Don't get me wrong ... I'm not anti-vaccination in the least. One only has to look at the numbers to see how amazingly beneficial vaccination has been to mankind.
I've had some very weird and inexplicable things going on with my health for decades, which I attribute to my bad experience with the Covid vaccine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:37 PM Kleinman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by AZPaul3, posted 10-16-2022 12:58 PM Dredge has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 443 of 2926 (899598)
10-16-2022 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by Dredge
10-16-2022 12:49 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
I've had some very weird and inexplicable things going on with my health for decades, which I attribute to my bad experience with the Covid vaccine.
And you wonder why we laugh at you and your stupid.
Since the covid vax is all of 3 years old you might want to look to some other cause of your decades long health problems.
This is so much beyond dumb. You're comatose.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 12:49 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by ringo, posted 10-16-2022 2:45 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 480 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 12:01 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 444 of 2926 (899599)
10-16-2022 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 10:13 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
In a sense, I would consider myself a Darwinist because I think that Darwin gives is a correct qualitative understanding of biological evolution.
I think Darwinian theory works fine when describing what I call empirical evolution - ie, evolution that can be directly observed in real time - eg, drug resistance.
But as for describing the history of life on earth and the appearance of novel organs and body plans, I think Darwinian theory is childishly simplistic and has proven thoroughly inadequate.
By "Darwinist", I refer to someone who believes the history life on earth (including man) is the result of a purely biological process that proceeded according to Darwinian theory. So your average Western atheist qualifies as a "Darwinist" (whose devotion to Darwinism is typically total, blind, fanatical and quasi-religous).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 10:13 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 1:53 PM Dredge has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 445 of 2926 (899602)
10-16-2022 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 12:19 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Perhaps you want to explain to us this finding from the Desai yeast experiment
Tanypteryx writes:
Why would I want to?
Because the Desai experiment is similiar to the Lenski experiment except using yeast, some of which are diploid sexual replicators. Don't you have any interest in descent with modification?
Nope, I'm not interested in experiments with yeast or bacteria. The Desai and Lenski bacteria and yeast experiments don't tell me anything about descent with modification of Calopteryx aequabilis or Hetaerina americana.
Kleinman writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
Perhaps you can explain the patterns of endogenous retroviral insertions in human and chimp genomes.
Why, is that an example of descent with modification? I could speculate like the fossil tea-leaf readers and say that perhaps humans and chimps can be infected by the same retroviruses.
I didn't say anything about descent with modification in Message 427. Apparently you are confused about the patterns of ERVs. Chimps and humans have some ERVs that are in identical points in both species' genomes even though the points endogenous retroviruses insert are random, so they must have been inherited from a common ancestor. Both genomes also have sets of ERVs that do not match, so they were obviously inserted after the two lineages separated. I am saying the matching ERVs in the 2 species are evidence of descent from a common ancestor, and the non-matching ERVs are evidence of descent with modification.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 12:19 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 2:47 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 446 of 2926 (899603)
10-16-2022 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Dredge
10-16-2022 12:58 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
As a physician, I'm a big fan of vaccination based on the success with polio, small pox, hepatitis B, measles, tetanus ...
Dredge:
Don't get me wrong ... I'm not anti-vaccination in the least. One only has to look at the numbers to see how amazingly beneficial vaccination has been to mankind.

I've had some very weird and inexplicable things going on with my health for decades, which I attribute to my bad experience with the Covid vaccine.

There's a saying that I learned early in my medical studies, "Every medicine is a little bit of poison". Sometimes medicines can be very toxic, I've seen it happen. Sadly, iatrogenic disease is a lot more common than you might expect. Vaccines are designed to trigger the immune system. If you are still feeling ill and you think it is due to the vaccine, you should tell your primary care doctor and ask to see an allergist/immunologist.
Kleinman:
In a sense, I would consider myself a Darwinist because I think that Darwin gives is a correct qualitative understanding of biological evolution.
Dredge:
I think Darwinian theory works fine when describing what I call empirical evolution - ie, evolution that can be directly observed in real time - eg, drug resistance.

Darwinian evolution works fine for describing "microevolution". Where biologists bungle the mathematics of Darwinian evolution is when they claim that a series of microevolutionary events add up to macroevolutionary change. What biologists don't understand is that microevolutionary events are random events. The joint probability of random adaptive evolutionary events doesn't add, you must multiply their probabilities. That's why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony experiment. Here's a video that demonstrates that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irnc6w_Gsas&t=67s&ab_chan...
This is why the fossil record should be loaded with transitional forms because each adaptive step takes a billion replications and that's under the best of circumstances.
Dredge:
But as for describing the history of life on earth and the appearance of novel organs and body plans, I think Darwinian theory is childishly simplistic and has proven thoroughly inadequate.
Darwin's explanation is very simple but so is Newton's F=ma equation. When one does the mathematics of Darwinian evolution correctly, one can correctly predict the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail. It also shows why the idea of universal common descent is nonsense.
Dredge:
By "Darwinist", I refer to someone who believes the history life on earth (including man) is the result of a purely biological process that proceeded according to Darwinian theory. So your average Western atheist qualifies as a "Darwinist" (whose devotion to Darwinism is typically total, blind, fanatical and quasi-religous).
I get it, certain words like "evolution", and "Darwin", are hot button words. But the problem in the theory of evolution is in the concept of universal common descent. You can see it in the posts from ringo. He tries to make me into an "evolution denier" because I think that the concept of universal common descent is mathematically irrational nonsense. I try to be precise with my terminology since I think that biological competition and descent with modification occur. I then put mathematical precision to this argument and correlate and substantiate that math with experimental and empirical evidence. That's a product of my engineering training and experience. I've met very few biologists that know how to do this kind of scientific analysis. They should take a couple of engineering courses and learn how to do this but they won't pass with their survey of physics and survey of mathematics as preparation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 12:58 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 12:10 PM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 447 of 2926 (899604)
10-16-2022 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Dredge
10-15-2022 10:54 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
... a vain attempt to dodge the question.
Kleinman asked me a question that made no sense and I explained why it made no sense. How is that dodging?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Dredge, posted 10-15-2022 10:54 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 3:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 448 of 2926 (899605)
10-16-2022 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Kleinman
10-15-2022 11:56 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
How do you know that the differences in phenotype you are seeing are due to recombination rather than DNA evolution?
Ask a biologist. Thousands of them have been working for centuries fitting every living thing into a nested hierarchy. They started doing that long before they knew much about DNA. FYI, the nested hierarchy demonstrates who is related to whom.
Kleinman writes:
The point is that you can't use gross anatomy to explain descent with modification.
Tell it to a biologist. They were doing it long before they know much about DNA.
Kleinman writes:
That process has to be measured at the molecular level by DNA sequencing.
And yet they did it without knowing much about DNA. You might as well be saying that you can't fly an airplane without understanding jet propulsion.
Kleinman writes:
Sadly, those examples are the results of real-world experiments.
Sadly for YOU, yes, because those seem to be the only experiments you know about. Somebody - it might have been Jed Clampett - used to say, "When he tells you howdy, he's told you everything he knows."
Kleinman writes:
ringo writes:
I asked you for an alternative explanation. Are you saying that evolution only happens within "kinds"?
Whether you want to use the word "species" or "kind", you have a mathematical and empirical problem with your idea of universal common descent.
1. "I" or "we" do not have a mathematical problem. YOU have a mathematical problem.
2. "I" or "we" do not have an empirical problem. YOU have a problem understanding that the Kishony and Lenski experiments do not define all of biology. (Do Kishony and Lenski even agree with your claims about them?)
3. It isn't "my" idea of universal common descent. It's the idea of practically every biol;ogist on earth. (And the alien biologists whose Petrie dishes we occupy agree with us too.)
4. It's becoming fairly clear that you ARE trying to push that evolution-only-within-kinds crap. It has no basis in biology (which is why you denigrate biologists) and it has no basis in the Bible either.
Kleinman writes:
At least I understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution...
And you claim that biologists don't. Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ability to repeat "Kishony and Lenski" in every sentence.
Kleinman writes:
Perhaps in a couple more generations biologists will figure this out....
Don't be too optimistic about how soon they will catch up with you.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Kleinman, posted 10-15-2022 11:56 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 3:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 449 of 2926 (899606)
10-16-2022 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Dredge
10-16-2022 11:57 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion.
You could have stopped at, "I don't know." That summarizes everything you've posted here.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 11:57 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 3:40 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 450 of 2926 (899607)
10-16-2022 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by Dredge
10-16-2022 12:18 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
I prefer to believe that humans did not evolve but were created as per Genesis 2:7, about 10,000 years ago.
You can prefer whatever flavor of ice cream you want. Just don't pretend that science confirms your preference.
ABE:
And you just admitted to being a YEC.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 12:18 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 3:42 PM ringo has replied
 Message 482 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 12:17 PM ringo has replied

  
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