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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Guarantee Phat will miss your point.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Theodoric writes:
If I was a contrarian, I would disagree. Guarantee Phat will miss your point."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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We can't know as again, there is no evidence. It is belief. Does an external intelligence exist or not. It is belief as there is no scientific evidence that will give you an absolute answer. Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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The commands of the universe. Doesn't a command require an intelligence? Really? You're going to pull that stupid trick? Human language is filled with colloquial expressions based on anthropomorphizing and personification. None of those typical expressions imply anything concrete. When I speak of the sun or the moon rising or setting, does that require geocentrism? Or imply that I am admitting to the "truth" of geocentrism? No, of course not! Those expressions are just based on our perspective being stuck within a frame of reference that we perceive as being motionless despite it actually being in motion -- similarly the phone poles you see whizzing past you in the car are not themselves moving past you but only appear to be doing so as you yourself are moving past them. Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJMYoj4hHqU for an interesting 1960 lecture on frames of reference; lots of visual examples. When I speak of Apple software having it in for me, does that mean that Apple software is a sentient entity with a personal grudge against me? No, of course not! Rather, it is the expression of my own frustration from many attempts to deal with arbitrary software that defies logic. When we speak of natural laws, does that require a sentient Nature serving as a Law-Giver consciously creating these laws? No, of course not! Rather, what we present as "laws" have been created by humans (we are the Law-Givers here) to describe how we have observed certain things to work. The same applies to AZPaul's reference to "the commands of the universe", by which he was saying something like: "Everything in the universe works in certain ways, so we would naturally expect everything (eg, "energy, actual physical photons") to behave in accordance with those certain ways that we have observed the universe to behave." (and here the use of "behave" is yet another example of the pervasive personification in colloquial English that I can only hope that you will not also try to misconstrue). I have been trying to discuss "creation science" with creationists since the mid-1980's, so I have seen a lot of their deceptive tricks. That includes twisting words to mean or imply things that were never intended, such you yourself just tried to do. As such, I am thoroughly fed up with that kind of nonsense and have no patience with those games. Please do not play those nonsensical games.
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
GDR writes: AZPaul3 writes:
That is energy, actual physical photons, and it will obey the commands of the universe.The commands of the universe. Doesn't a command require an intelligence? I know AZPaul3 already responded, but seriously? But given other things you've said, I expect that your position is that photons following the laws of the universe is evidence of non-natural photons, or at least of non-natural somethings. I don't think anyone here follows your logic and finds it opaque. I think the reason no one can follow your logic is that you're using a circular argument while leaving out one crucial part that would close the circle: you assume the existence of God. --Percy
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: Call it what you like, but we now have conscious sentient life, and in my personal opinion, it is more likely to have come from an intelligent source than a non-intelligent source. I don't believe you mean this for a second. Within some small number of messages you'll again be back to your claims of evidence. For example, you still believe that the mere existence of life is evidence of a "cosmic intelligence" or "external intelligence" or whatever term you move on to in the future. But it isn't evidence. It's your personal opinion.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Ya - not good. It was about control, and the church had too much political power and were more than a tad reluctant to give it up.
There have always been a few intellectuals arguing the toss about biblical issues - so long as they lived in jurisdictions and in times that didn't get you burnt alive for doing it. But the people were illiterate and the bible was not trusted in the hands of the laity. In England only latin bibles existed and those that tried to translate it for the people were burnt. The people got their knowledge of the bible from the pulpit and what they got was fire and damnation. Tangle writes: Sometimes it's easier just to treat it like it is a literal account, knowing it's not meant to be literal. From a Christian perspective I see the message being that even if there is only one good man left, God doesn't give up on us. The other message from that account is that God cares about the animals. Stuff like Noah's Ark and the Flood were being preached in ordinary churches and in bible classes back in the 60s when I was being forced fed the stuff. As always the church has stuff to answer for, but it does a lot of good as well.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
GDR writes: Call it what you like, but we now have conscious sentient life, and in my personal opinion, it is more likely to have come from an intelligent source than a non-intelligent source. Yes, it's your personal opinion. That was my point. You're supposed to understand that personal opinions are meaningless. There are billions of people out there and all have various numbers of personal opinions not worth discussing. Views worth discussing are backed by evidence and argument that can be weighed and assessed. You can't just say you have evidence - you have to actually have it. Your lack of evidence means that your personal opinion that God exists is equal to someone else's personal opinion that the invisible spaghetti monster exists. The reason that belief that gods and spaghetti monsters exist does not come anywhere near in validity to the consensus that the Higgs Boson exists is because of evidence. This simple fact about the importance of evidence is not going to change. Without evidence you are unmoored. --Percy
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: The wording has changed somewhat as there is a growing knowledge of the early Greek literature and Greek language and idioms. However, I would say that with the increasing knowledge of the language, as well as with a far better understanding of the time and culture that the various books of the Bible were written in, our understanding of the Bible continues to evolve. The book hasn’t changed, nor has its meaning. It’s God’s word, how could it? Tangle writes: I agree that the Sermon on the Mount is central to the Christian faith. What’s changed is US. Or at least some of us. You try to put the words into your context as a 21st century, liberal Westerner. To do that you really mustn’t read further than the sermon on the mount otherwise you’re in a lot of trouble. IMHO the NT has to be understood in many cases by reading the OT. The OT is quoted in so many cases in the NT. I then think that in order to understand the OT one has to look through the lens of what Jesus taught to understand it. For example you can't square the genocide or public stoning in the OT with Jesus' message of loving your enemy. I do agree that the Sermon on the Mount covers the whole social Gospel message.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes:
Ya, it was meant to illicit a smile. Well personification being what it is then no, not necessarily. But you knew that. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I agree that there is no way to tell. But why do you think that matters? What difference does it make? I guess it matters as if there is an outside influence it then raises the question of what should that mean for our lives, if anything.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Because you don’t care about the truth, only about propping up your personal belief, Obviously this sort of thinking leads to an infinite regress. And it seems obvious to me that evolution is a more likely cause of intelligence than anything you might propose for your assumed “cosmic intelligence” - and that can be backed by at least some evidence.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: I agree that the Sermon on the Mount is central to the Christian faith. It's not without problems of course, the main one being that Jesus never said any of it.
quote: Sermon on the Mount - Wikipedia Jesus had speech writers. They were so good that Jesus didn't actually need to give the speeches. Somebody - literally god know who - made them up decades after the probably fictitious Jesus had died.Edited by Tangle, . Edited by Tangle, . Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
GDR writes: Ya, it was meant to illicit a smile. You're attaching a smilie to a comment acknowledging that you were wasting people's time? People thought you were serious and responded to that. That smilie belongs at the end of Message 521 so you wouldn't have wasted people's time. --Percy
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: That is actually changing. It completely ignore the works of all the early church fathers. It is based on the internal evidence only. I have gone through the arguments for what is in the wiki article and in each case it could be argued for or against the later dating of the Gospels. So much for eyewitnesses. Yes, many of the universities are now reviewing that position and looking at the time in which the Gospels were written. I have read quite a bit on the subject including all of Bauckham's tome. I read a book by David Alan Black called ]Why 4 Gospels where he argued for Matthean priority and a much earlier writing. However, neither of us will convince the other and it is entirely off topic anyway.
Percy writes: Well ya, bar Giora led a revolt that had some early success but ultimately wound up with the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus' idea of revolution didn't involve violence. It wouldn't be seen as noteworthy at the time.
History records a great deal about Simon bar Giora, but of Jesus, nothing. Percy writes: Same answer.
History records a great deal about Simon bar Kokhba, but of Jesus, nothing. Percy writes: Paul, an itinerant preacher who founded churches in the Jewish diaspora, created the religion that eventually became Christianity. There is no way of knowing whether he based Jesus upon a real person, a composite of real persons, or made him up out of whole cloth, but that the gospels are works of fiction, just like the Bhagavad Gita, the Quran and the Book of Mormon, there can be no doubt. If you say so. There are numerous very bright, very well educated people in this world who would disagree, but you claim there is no doubt.
Percy writes: We simply disagree, and I can present nothing that you won't dispute. The writings that did survive until today are the testimonies of the early Christian churches of the Jewish diaspora which had never had any contact with Jesus and had no reliable source of information about him.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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