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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
GDR writes:
So then as Christians we have to start with Jesus Percy writes: Woah! Hold on, Cowboy! Didn't see this leap coming. Don't you first have to at least advance evidence for your first and second claims? If those were just axioms to be accepted before you moved on to discussing Jesus then that isn't a topic that interests me.I think GDR is simply laying out his personal belief. Note that he also said it soesnt matter what name. So why not go with "The Force" in Star Wars lore as representing Cosmic Intelligence. The Star Wars concept is patterned on Dualism, with a good side and a bad side. A Yin and Yang, as it were. Is such a dualistic Cosmic Intelligence plausible to you? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: How many do there have to be? In the Star Wars model, there is One, with two natures. Or would you prefer a pantheon as the Greeks had? Even then, Zeus was the chief. Catholics also created a pantheon in a sense when they brought in Saints. And then they wanted to add Mary to the Trinity! I guess Moms *are* special! You contend that there's such a thing as "cosmic intelligence" based on what? And why can there be only one? Watch any good Mafia Movie and there is usually only one (if any) standing at the end. Edited by Phat, : added a bit "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Welcome back! Great belief by the way. If God chose ALL yet only some responded, it would still mean that God chose ALL for vocation. This lines up with jars argument that we are Christians based on what we *Do*.
A lot of my critics here at EvC claim that the OT God was a Monster, but my explanation is that the warlike people wanted (and thus interpreted) God as a warmongering monster. They essentially put words in Yahweh's mouth. If anyone thinks that is only an ancient trait, look at believers in any modern war. We tend to cherry-pick verses that have God blessing us and supporting our war while opposing the "intrinsic evil" of the enemy."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: That's one of the better philosophical points you have made. I know that you are an atheist (a materialist IIRC) and you do often get me to think without insulting me. I appreciate it. If there is a real deity - as you claim - it is the way it is. Your choice won’t change that. Tangle thinks it's all madness, but I think that he wishes that the Bronze Age Goat Herder belief system would "grow up" or something. And as far as choosing a faith, not to choose is to choose. All is well with the world and we will always need each other."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK, addressing GDR writes: I would think that you yourself should be glad. It proves that an atheist can be self-correcting and take the high road. We would suggest that a Higher Intelligence works behind the scenes in all of us (believer and unbeliever alike) but it is totally rational and acceptable to believe that you are self-correcting and becoming better each day without the need of a Deity. We all should be glad for each other getting a bit calmer and more rational day by day. And we should forgive each other for having snippy days where we appear to regress. That's being human. Be glad that I chose not to continue the escalation that you had started."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This is a Faith & Belief Forum. No evidence is required, at least of the objective variety.
And in the realm of Faith and imagination, your words (coated with hatred for all things theistic) are powerless. You have less power to eliminate God than God has to oversee your eventual death and future existence. At that time, you will finally see the evidence that your desperate mind wants to avoid. Of course, you won't believe me. Largely because it is the last thing you would ever want."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZ Does It writes: Perhaps not, but it needs more than humanist actions to survive much past the next hundred years. You know the data. Tell me I'm wrong! This society does not need a religious structure to invoke humanist actions."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You get no data over here. It's all about belief. If that's your only method to believe...through data, I pity you. Oh, go back to your armchair.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: If we can't use words, what do you propose we use? Rocks? Or numbers? And as soon as you start talking about evidence, those of us who have well-defined ideas of what constitutes actual evidence are going to chime in. For instance, Jesus's appearing to more than 500 people at once after his resurrection is often cited as evidence by believers, but these are just words on a page, just like the Book of Mormon is words on a page."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Actually, I did google Pew Research and found confirmation of what you said.
Pew Research-Apr 27, 2009 writes: More than four in 10 American adults are no longer members of the religion they were brought up in, while about one in 10 changed religion, then went back to the one they left, the study found... Pew Research 2015 writes: like the 2007 Religious Landscape Study, the new survey shows a remarkable degree of churn in the U.S. religious landscape. If Protestantism is treated as a single religious group, then fully 34% of American adults currently have a religious identity different from the one in which they were raised, which is up six percentage points since 2007. If the three major Protestant traditions (evangelical Protestantism, mainline Protestantism and historically black Protestantism) are analyzed as separate categories, then the share of Americans who have switched religions rises to 42%.16 And these figures do not include an estimate of the number of “reverts” (people who leave their childhood religion before returning to it later in life). If the survey had measured this category, the estimates of the number of people who have switched religions would be higher still.(...)Nearly one-in-five American adults (18%) were raised in a religion and are now unaffiliated, compared with just 4% who have moved in the other direction. In other words, for every person who has left the unaffiliated and now identifies with a religious group more than four people have joined the ranks of the religious “nones.”(...)Fewer than one-in-ten adults (9.2%) say they were raised as religious “nones.” And nearly half of those who were raised unaffiliated (4.3% of all U.S. adults) now identify with a religion. But fully 18% of American adults were raised in a religious tradition and now describe themselves as unaffiliated. IIRC, most of you (the EvC Peanut Gallery) were raised as Christians or Catholics."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I draw a mild distinction between the two, but am referring to Evangelicals vs Traditionalists.
Evangelicals are by and large more emotionally driven. Catholics are more ritualistic and traditional. And as an ex-Catholic, you know you never saw anyone falling out at the altar or speaking in tongues during mass."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: I know Catholics who would argue that Protestants are not real Christians because they are not Catholic. And I know Protestants (chiefly charismatics) who would argue that Catholics are not "real" Christians because they simply followed traditions and never actually "got saved". I don't claim to be able to judge anyone either way. Being raised traditional United Methodist and later freely converting to evangelical/charismatic, I likely do have a bias in favor of similar folks. Your bigotry is showing - you made a distinction between Christians and Catholics. All are Christians. "Not real Christians" I guess. My views have changed from when I first joined the Charismaniacs. I now prefer to trust God and pray to Him individually rather than as part of a group. And from what I've gone on record saying around here, I have a lot of repenting and introspection on my plate!"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lack of evidence never bothers me. I think that some will follow with no evidence (apart from their newfound desire to follow) while many more won't.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Now you see what I have to put up with!
I told my Counselor about EvC and about how nobody has changed their basic stance ever since I got here. He recommended that I cut it loose. He said that everyone here has already made up their minds about what they choose to believe and that nobody will ever change. He wants me to make better use of my time."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: Do you mean that He imparts it into us? Thus robbing us of the effort and necessity of figuring it out for ourselves. Let's say God exists and provides "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!" The counter-argument is that we are incapable of achieving the goal without Holy Communion of some sort. AA said it first. We are powerless without the higher power. You may counter that by saying that the facts show we have no higher power. This does not prevent us from having higher ideals. Perhaps an Ultimate Objective Purpose."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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