Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 53 (9179 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: Anig
Post Volume: Total: 918,051 Year: 5,308/9,624 Month: 333/323 Week: 177/160 Day: 13/38 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 4 of 3810 (896972)
08-27-2022 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
08-27-2022 2:55 PM


Choosing A Faith...Or Not
GDR writes:
So then as Christians we have to start with Jesus
Percy writes:
Didn't see this leap coming. Don't you first have to at least advance evidence for your first and second claims? If those were just axioms to be accepted before you moved on to discussing Jesus then that isn't a topic that interests me.
Woah! Hold on, Cowboy!
I think GDR is simply laying out his personal belief. Note that he also said it soesnt matter what name. So why not go with "The Force" in Star Wars lore as representing Cosmic Intelligence. The Star Wars concept is patterned on Dualism, with a good side and a bad side. A Yin and Yang, as it were. Is such a dualistic Cosmic Intelligence plausible to you?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 2:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 5 of 3810 (896974)
08-27-2022 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
08-27-2022 2:55 PM


Percy writes:
You contend that there's such a thing as "cosmic intelligence" based on what? And why can there be only one?
How many do there have to be? In the Star Wars model, there is One, with two natures. Or would you prefer a pantheon as the Greeks had? Even then, Zeus was the chief. Catholics also created a pantheon in a sense when they brought in Saints. And then they wanted to add Mary to the Trinity! I guess Moms *are* special!
Watch any good Mafia Movie and there is usually only one (if any) standing at the end.

Edited by Phat, : added a bit


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 2:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 7 of 3810 (896978)
08-27-2022 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
08-27-2022 1:59 PM


We aren’t chosen for salvation, but for vocation.
Welcome back! Great belief by the way. If God chose ALL yet only some responded, it would still mean that God chose ALL for vocation. This lines up with jars argument that we are Christians based on what we *Do*.
A lot of my critics here at EvC claim that the OT God was a Monster, but my explanation is that the warlike people wanted (and thus interpreted) God as a warmongering monster. They essentially put words in Yahweh's mouth.
If anyone thinks that is only an ancient trait, look at believers in any modern war. We tend to cherry-pick verses that have God blessing us and supporting our war while opposing the "intrinsic evil" of the enemy.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 1:59 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 4:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 36 of 3810 (897017)
08-28-2022 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by GDR
08-27-2022 4:27 PM


Practcing The Art Of Discussion
PaulK writes:
If there is a real deity - as you claim - it is the way it is. Your choice won’t change that.
That's one of the better philosophical points you have made. I know that you are an atheist (a materialist IIRC) and you do often get me to think without insulting me. I appreciate it.
Tangle thinks it's all madness, but I think that he wishes that the Bronze Age Goat Herder belief system would "grow up" or something.
And as far as choosing a faith, not to choose is to choose. All is well with the world and we will always need each other.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 4:27 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 1:05 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 37 of 3810 (897018)
08-28-2022 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
08-28-2022 2:16 AM


Self Correction
PaulK, addressing GDR writes:
Be glad that I chose not to continue the escalation that you had started.
I would think that you yourself should be glad. It proves that an atheist can be self-correcting and take the high road. We would suggest that a Higher Intelligence works behind the scenes in all of us (believer and unbeliever alike) but it is totally rational and acceptable to believe that you are self-correcting and becoming better each day without the need of a Deity. We all should be glad for each other getting a bit calmer and more rational day by day. And we should forgive each other for having snippy days where we appear to regress. That's being human.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2022 2:16 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2022 3:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 41 of 3810 (897027)
08-28-2022 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by AZPaul3
08-28-2022 3:24 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
This is a Faith & Belief Forum. No evidence is required, at least of the objective variety.
And in the realm of Faith and imagination, your words (coated with hatred for all things theistic) are powerless. You have less power to eliminate God than God has to oversee your eventual death and future existence. At that time, you will finally see the evidence that your desperate mind wants to avoid. Of course, you won't believe me. Largely because it is the last thing you would ever want.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 3:24 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 7:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 9:24 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 42 of 3810 (897028)
08-28-2022 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by AZPaul3
08-28-2022 4:44 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZ Does It writes:
This society does not need a religious structure to invoke humanist actions.
Perhaps not, but it needs more than humanist actions to survive much past the next hundred years. You know the data. Tell me I'm wrong!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 4:44 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 11:23 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 48 of 3810 (897035)
08-28-2022 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Theodoric
08-28-2022 11:23 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
You get no data over here. It's all about belief. If that's your only method to believe...through data, I pity you. Oh, go back to your armchair.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 11:23 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 12:45 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 50 of 3810 (897037)
08-28-2022 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
08-28-2022 9:24 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Percy writes:
And as soon as you start talking about evidence, those of us who have well-defined ideas of what constitutes actual evidence are going to chime in. For instance, Jesus's appearing to more than 500 people at once after his resurrection is often cited as evidence by believers, but these are just words on a page, just like the Book of Mormon is words on a page.
If we can't use words, what do you propose we use? Rocks? Or numbers?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 9:24 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 09-01-2022 10:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 52 of 3810 (897041)
08-28-2022 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Theodoric
08-28-2022 12:45 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Actually, I did google Pew Research and found confirmation of what you said.
Pew Research-Apr 27, 2009 writes:
More than four in 10 American adults are no longer members of the religion they were brought up in, while about one in 10 changed religion, then went back to the one they left, the study found...
Pew Research 2015 writes:
like the 2007 Religious Landscape Study, the new survey shows a remarkable degree of churn in the U.S. religious landscape. If Protestantism is treated as a single religious group, then fully 34% of American adults currently have a religious identity different from the one in which they were raised, which is up six percentage points since 2007. If the three major Protestant traditions (evangelical Protestantism, mainline Protestantism and historically black Protestantism) are analyzed as separate categories, then the share of Americans who have switched religions rises to 42%.16 And these figures do not include an estimate of the number of “reverts” (people who leave their childhood religion before returning to it later in life). If the survey had measured this category, the estimates of the number of people who have switched religions would be higher still.(...)Nearly one-in-five American adults (18%) were raised in a religion and are now unaffiliated, compared with just 4% who have moved in the other direction. In other words, for every person who has left the unaffiliated and now identifies with a religious group more than four people have joined the ranks of the religious “nones.”(...)Fewer than one-in-ten adults (9.2%) say they were raised as religious “nones.” And nearly half of those who were raised unaffiliated (4.3% of all U.S. adults) now identify with a religion. But fully 18% of American adults were raised in a religious tradition and now describe themselves as unaffiliated.
IIRC, most of you (the EvC Peanut Gallery) were raised as Christians or Catholics.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 12:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 1:25 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 54 of 3810 (897044)
08-28-2022 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Tangle
08-28-2022 1:25 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
I draw a mild distinction between the two, but am referring to Evangelicals vs Traditionalists.
Evangelicals are by and large more emotionally driven. Catholics are more ritualistic and traditional. And as an ex-Catholic, you know you never saw anyone falling out at the altar or speaking in tongues during mass.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 1:25 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 1:50 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 56 of 3810 (897048)
08-28-2022 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
08-28-2022 1:50 PM


Catholics and Protestants
Tangle writes:
Your bigotry is showing - you made a distinction between Christians and Catholics. All are Christians. "Not real Christians" I guess.
I know Catholics who would argue that Protestants are not real Christians because they are not Catholic. And I know Protestants (chiefly charismatics) who would argue that Catholics are not "real" Christians because they simply followed traditions and never actually "got saved". I don't claim to be able to judge anyone either way. Being raised traditional United Methodist and later freely converting to evangelical/charismatic, I likely do have a bias in favor of similar folks.
My views have changed from when I first joined the Charismaniacs. I now prefer to trust God and pray to Him individually rather than as part of a group. And from what I've gone on record saying around here, I have a lot of repenting and introspection on my plate!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 1:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 3:48 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 58 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 4:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 79 of 3810 (897117)
08-29-2022 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Percy
08-29-2022 2:43 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Lack of evidence never bothers me. I think that some will follow with no evidence (apart from their newfound desire to follow) while many more won't.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 08-29-2022 2:43 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 81 of 3810 (897119)
08-29-2022 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by GDR
08-29-2022 1:13 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Now you see what I have to put up with!
I told my Counselor about EvC and about how nobody has changed their basic stance ever since I got here. He recommended that I cut it loose. He said that everyone here has already made up their minds about what they choose to believe and that nobody will ever change. He wants me to make better use of my time.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 1:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 3:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 09-05-2022 11:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 274 by Percy, posted 09-05-2022 12:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 287 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2022 2:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 83 of 3810 (897123)
08-29-2022 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Stile
08-29-2022 2:48 PM


Ultimate Objective Purpose
Stile writes:
Let's say God exists and provides "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!"
Do you mean that He imparts it into us? Thus robbing us of the effort and necessity of figuring it out for ourselves.
The counter-argument is that we are incapable of achieving the goal without Holy Communion of some sort.
AA said it first. We are powerless without the higher power.
You may counter that by saying that the facts show we have no higher power.
This does not prevent us from having higher ideals. Perhaps an Ultimate Objective Purpose.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 2:48 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Stile, posted 08-30-2022 11:15 AM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024