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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 9 of 3810 (896983)
08-27-2022 4:14 PM


Here we go again, full circle. Like none of the previous arguments ever happened and now we go through them all agains.
It's the definition of madness.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 4:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 15 of 3810 (896989)
08-27-2022 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by GDR
08-27-2022 4:21 PM


GDR writes:
t was this type of post that caused me to give up on this site in the first place.
This is just disingenuous. You left because you couldn't persuade us and got frustrated. And you're back to give it another go using the same assertions. Why?
What is the point of this forum then?
I no longer think there is any point, it's a form of mental illness, albeit fairly benign.
You have your atheistic beliefs and I have my Christian beliefs. I thought that the idea is to discuss our beliefs.
Yeh, that was the idea, but we did that. What do you have that's new to discuss? What is it that you think hasn't been said?
You are certainly free to ignore anything I write.
I am aware of that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 4:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 24 of 3810 (896999)
08-27-2022 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
08-27-2022 5:08 PM


GDR writes:
So you know what I was thinking better than I do.
I know what you think because you've told us, over and over. If something has changed for you, best to tell us now - it would save a lot of time. But I'm prepared to bet it hasn't.
I never really expected to change anyone's beliefs. I only wanted to have a discussion on the major issue in my life, and to get other perspectives.
You had the discussion, you made over 5,000 posts
Then why on earth are you still here, and why bother to reply to my post.
Hope over expectation plus a little mental illness.
Most of the theists have left so largely, other than Phat, this has been essentially a site on which and others can discuss the beliefs that you hold in common.
We don't need to discuss them because we have them in common, so we don't. This isn't a religion, we don't feel the need to express our faith together and ritually worship Newton or Darwin or Segan to reinforce our beliefs.
The work here now is feeding crazy trolls, baiting nut jobs, calling anti-vaxxers names and trying not to feel bad about it. Sad. (As another famous nut job once said.)
So from that POV you are right, and I don't belong here and the whole point of establishing this site has completely changed. If that is the case I will disappear back into the cloud.
This site is sadly, redundant. The God vs Evolution if it's happening at all now - I doubt it , god debates are no longer fashionable - is not happening on sites like this. Most have retreated to blogs, ie preaching or are encamped behind their own lines.
Maybe I don't have anything new. Beats me. However, I continue to read and my views change over time.
Right. So now's the time to think about it. If you have something new to say that isn't just "I believe that..." we'd all be very grateful to discuss it with you. Maybe even civilly..

Edited by Tangle, .


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:08 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 53 of 3810 (897042)
08-28-2022 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
08-28-2022 1:20 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Christians or Catholics?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 55 of 3810 (897046)
08-28-2022 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2022 1:36 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Phat writes:
I draw a mild distinction between the two, but am referring to Evangelicals vs Traditionalists.

Evangelicals are by and large more emotionally driven. Catholics are more ritualistic and traditional. And as an ex-Catholic, you know you never saw anyone falling out at the altar or speaking in tongues during mass.
Your bigotry is showing - you made a distinction between Christians and Catholics. All are Christians. "Not real Christians" I guess.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 2:08 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 1:17 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 57 of 3810 (897050)
08-28-2022 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
08-28-2022 2:08 PM


Re: Catholics and Protestants
Phat writes:
I know Catholics who would argue that Protestants are not real Christians because they are not Catholic.
I'm sure you do, they're as bigoted as you are. Not a particular Christian attitude is it?
And I know Protestants (chiefly charismatics) who would argue that Catholics are not "real" Christians because they simply followed traditions and never actually "got saved".
ditto above.
I don't claim to be able to judge anyone either way.
You do it automatically.
Being raised traditional United Methodist and later freely converting to evangelical/charismatic, I likely do have a bias in favor of similar folks.

My views have changed from when I first joined the Charismaniacs. I now prefer to trust God and pray to Him individually rather than as part of a group. And from what I've gone on record saying around here, I have a lot of repenting and introspection on my plate!
You have no idea how mad all that sounds. But anyway, Christians are Christians if they self-identify as such.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 2:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 71 of 3810 (897099)
08-29-2022 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by GDR
08-29-2022 1:13 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
I find the belief in a world with only materialistic roots to be unfathomable
I think this is a far more productive area of discussion than going over all the same stuff again.
My highly unoriginal thought is that it's the fact that people, when they look up at the stars and do the "what does it all mean, there must e more to it than this" thing that everybody does, then have to make up a meaning.
Religions of all shapes and sizes have filled that hole in our heads for millennia. For some of us though, science has started to fill in some of the hole - just a little bit - and reason has filled in a bit more. Enough at least to be clear that the thousands of world beliefs do not solve the meaning problem.
It seems that us humans need have to have meaning beyond their lifetimes. Because we're unique in being able to see beyond our lifetime and sense our own mortality we think there must be more beyond it. We think we're different and special.
I'm not one of them, I see no reason at all why we should not be just accumulations of atoms and that fact doesn't bother me at all.
Meaning can be found in what we do while we're alive.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 1:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 2:21 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 80 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 2:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 88 of 3810 (897129)
08-29-2022 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Stile
08-29-2022 2:48 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Stile writes:
he greatest of all meaning - the one determined by ourselves for no other reason than we think it's right/good/better-than-the-alternatives.

Let's say God exists and provides "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!"
-what if God's purpose for us is to better ourselves and our fellow humans (and our world, and our solar system, and our...)
-if God gives us this purpose... we become nothing more than a tool... a robot built to follow a guideline. No personal judgement necessary (or desired!)

Let's say God doesn't exist, and there's no other purpose than that which we define for ourselves.
-what if, on our own, as a species, we came up with a purpose to better ourselves and our fellow humans (and our world, and our solar system, and our...)
-I'd say this purpose includes "honour" - there's no reason to follow this purpose other than personal conviction. We don't know if it's "good" or not... we just say "well, it's the most-good thing we can think of, for now!" and get on with it. That's honourable and that sort of honour just doesn't exist if the purpose is provided/expected/given.

In this sense... I think that personally-created-purpose has the potential to be greater and better than any possible "Ultimate, Objective Purpose!" handed over by any other possible entity.
You and I might agree on stuff like honour and love giving a meaning. Others would put family before everything. And some others like. Trump, Putin etc think that meaning comes in other forms - - power, status, wealth, legacy. Sadly there really isn't clear agreement on this between humanity. If there was, the world would not be the way it is.
The Golden Rule that GDR is so fond of is sadly not universal.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 2:48 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 3:57 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 95 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 4:25 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 104 of 3810 (897160)
08-30-2022 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by GDR
08-30-2022 2:06 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
I'm not equivocating at all. I am merely saying that the still small voice is universally given to all, but at the same time everyone universally is free to reject it.
That's entirely invented isn't it? There's no voice, small or otherwise. (And there's no god, but forget that..)
So I suppose it's a metaphor for knowing right from wrong and there's nothing supernatural about that. And in the words of the song ”what's love got to do with it?”

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by GDR, posted 08-30-2022 2:06 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by GDR, posted 08-30-2022 11:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 112 of 3810 (897171)
08-30-2022 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by GDR
08-30-2022 11:01 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
Of course there is......... It's in the Book
It's certainly in the book. No supernatural whisperings required.
Our Brains are Wired for Morality: Evolution, Development, and Neuroscience · Frontiers for Young Minds

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by GDR, posted 08-30-2022 11:01 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 08-30-2022 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 115 of 3810 (897178)
08-30-2022 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by GDR
08-30-2022 1:30 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
I didn't mean that response to be taken seriously.
I did notice that.
It was dragging us back into done before debates that you and others complained about so it was an effort to keep us from going off track.
Talking about still small voices was taking us all the way back but as you did it anyway it required the response that there's no such magic and that morality is adequately explained by the non-supernatural forces of evolution and culture.
What else have you got?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 08-30-2022 1:30 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 129 of 3810 (897210)
08-31-2022 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by GDR
08-31-2022 2:25 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
When we raise our kids hopefully we do it with unconditional love. We want to be a good example and we want to give them guidance.
This isn't a universal truth either is it? You have to account for the bad stuff as well as the lovely stuff.
We are what we are through an evolutionary process which is about the survival of the fittest. Certainly co-operation can exist within the process and should be expected as there can be strength in numbers. However it is still about looking out for number one. We know though that we can rise above that and there has to be a reason for that. I don't see materialistic reasons for it.
This has been explained to you many times. There are perfectly good evolutionary and cultural explanations for these behaviours.
I think we would both agree that there is a right and wrong. Why would there be a right and wrong in a totally materialistic world?
You don't mean materialistic do you? You just mean godless. And again, it's been explained to you. You just prefer to believe that some supernatural being is whispering in people's ears. That's rather mad.
I contend that it would be a very unhappy world if there was no God meme.
Most of Scandanavia is godless. They're the happiest people on the planet. Why do you need to make this stuff up?
We have seen nations governed by despots whose lust for power is quite content to see the lives of millions lost to increase their power and others are simply tools to be used to increase their power. Maybe that would be survival of the fittest in action. In my view they have completely rejected the God meme, the still small voice of God, and they had the free will to do that. You have chosen a path of loving the other but that was freely chosen by you.
It seems that your god makes psychopaths as well as nice cuddly people. Why?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 2:25 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 1:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 138 of 3810 (897223)
08-31-2022 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by GDR
08-31-2022 1:16 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I said hopefully parents raise their kids with unconditional love, acknowledging that it wasn’t done universally.
But you haven't accounted for parents not raising their kids with unconditional love.
Agreed you just keep making the same arguments.
They're not my arguments, they're sciences' explanations.
but it is a faith issue as to why the idea of sacrificial love exists at all. What is the science behind sacrificial love in the evolutionary process? Darwin’s finches got longer beaks to adapt to their environment, Evolution is a physical process.
I've given you a paper that starts to simply explain it, have you read it?
I don’t see atheists as being godless.
But you just see what you want to see. I'm an atheist, I'm totally godless. Just accept it.
Even Hitler loved his dog from what I’ve read.
Oh god, Hitler... He was a bloody Catholic. Most people - excepting Phat and Faith - accept Catholics as Christians and I suppose even a psychopath can love his dog. But, you know wtf? He was a power crazed, murderous, deluded dictator - a product of evolution, culture and environment. God failed to whisper in his ear.
2/3 of Swedes are Christian
Sweden population (2022) live — Countrymeters
84.7% of Norway is Christian
Norway population (2022) live — Countrymeters
Why do you need to make this stuff up?
I'm a Christian Atheist.
quote:
Irreligion is common in Sweden, and Sweden is one of the most secular nations in the world. The majority of Swedish citizens are members of the Church of Sweden, but very few are practicing members. {...] Sweden is considered one of the world's most secular nations, with a high proportion of irreligious people.[9] Phil Zuckerman, an associate professor of Sociology at Pitzer College,[10] writes that several academic sources have in recent years placed atheism rates in Sweden between 46% and 85%,
Irreligion in Sweden - Wikipedia
And they are the happiest in the world. So how do you account for that?
Because He gave us free will.
A psychopath has no choice to be a psychopath. It's a neurological error. How is that free will?

Edited by Tangle, .

Edited by Tangle, .

Edited by Tangle, .


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 1:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 5:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 146 of 3810 (897235)
08-31-2022 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by GDR
08-31-2022 5:24 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
You didn't read the link did you?
And you can't explain why the most non-religious countries in the world are the happiest can you?
(Despite your assertion that the godless can't be happy - somehow I manage it.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 5:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 8:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(3)
Message 161 of 3810 (897252)
09-01-2022 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by GDR
08-31-2022 8:22 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
You've made a number of unevidenced and/or evidentially wrong assertions, but your your core claim seems to be that altruism can't be explained by the natural forces that have shaped all life - including all human life - here.
You say - without evidence - that altruistic behaviour is a supernatural, ie god given, human trait. And by god, you mean the Christian god of your particular born-into belief.
quote:
Altruism is the principle and moral practice of concern for happiness of other human beings or other animals, resulting in a quality of life both material and spiritual. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures and a core aspect of various religious and secular worldviews. However, the object(s) of concern vary among cultures and religions. In an extreme case, altruism may become a synonym of selflessness, which is the opposite of selfishness.
Altruism - Wikipedia
In making this claim, you dismiss the obvious problem that altruistic behaviour is caused by brain activity that can be observed. And like all our other behaviours, this is governed by genetics, environment and culture. There is absolutely no reason to believe that altruism is the result of a different process to all other biological processes.
quote:
Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain, hard-wired and pleasurable.[19] One brain region, the subgenual anterior cingulate cortex/basal forebrain, contributes to learning altruistic behavior, especially in those with trait empathy.[20] The same study has shown a connection between giving to charity and the promotion of social bonding.[21]
In fact, in an experiment published in March 2007 at the University of Southern California neuroscientist Antonio R. Damasio and his colleagues showed that subjects with damage to the ventromedial prefrontal cortex lack the ability to empathically feel their way to moral answers, and that when confronted with moral dilemmas, these brain-damaged patients coldly came up with "end-justifies-the-means" answers, leading Damasio to conclude that the point was not that they reached immoral conclusions, but that when they were confronted by a difficult issue – in this case as whether to shoot down a passenger plane hijacked by terrorists before it hits a major city – these patients appear to reach decisions without the anguish that afflicts those with normally functioning brains.
Altruistic behaviour is seen in many animals particularly our close evolutionary relatives so, there's no doubt that it's an evolved trait like all others.
The wiki article shows how altruism has been adopted by many religions, it is not simply a Christian claim and of course it's not even a religious claim. Atheists are not devoid of altruism. Altruism is a behaviour spectrum found - with exceptions and varying strengths - in all humans (and other animals.) universally. It's an emotion like all others. (It's also interesting to note that you make no claim over the negative motions - anger, hate, fear etc.)
So the only religious argument left is that some supernatural being way back at the beginning of creation forced evolution along a path that would develop animal brains to incorporate emotions such as empathy and altruism. (And hate, greed, anger, prejudice, acquisitiveness, selfishness, competitiveness, contempt, shame etc)
Rationalists would simply apply Occam's Razor and cut the god intervention out of the equation as unnecessary. All other emotions have evolved naturally, why is a god needed?
They would also point to the total lack of evidence for the existence of any god(s).

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by GDR, posted 08-31-2022 8:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 2:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
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