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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 3 of 3810 (896970)
08-27-2022 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
08-27-2022 1:59 PM


GDR writes:
I left this site some time back as IMHO name calling and put down too often took the place of reasoned discussion. I’ll have another go at it.
Welcome back. I agree that too much discussion was unsubstantive and unconstructive, but they're all just a bunch of yahoos and wing nuts anyway.
Firstly, I contend that there is only one cosmic intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
You contend that there's such a thing as "cosmic intelligence" based on what? And why can there be only one?
It doesn’t matter what name...
What's in a name anyway?
...you give that deity,...
If there really is such a thing as "cosmic intelligence" and that there is only one, why does it follow that it's a deity?
What matters is the characteristics or nature of the deity...My point is that it isn’t about choosing which deity that we choose to worship, but the nature of whatever deity we choose.
Okay. Hopefully there's more on this further on?
Secondly I suggest that the Bible was inspired...So yes, I agree that God inspired people to write their stories and understandings, in the case of the OT, of Yahweh and then in the NT of Jesus as the true representative of Yahweh. That does not mean that He told them what to write, but to simply tell their stories and their beliefs which were all ultimately combined to make up the 66 books of the Bible.
Okay. Again, hopefully there's more on this further on?
So then as Christians we have to start with Jesus.
Didn't see this leap coming. Don't you first have to at least advance evidence for your first and second claims? If those were just axioms to be accepted before you moved on to discussing Jesus then that isn't a topic that interests me.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 1:59 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 3:25 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 8 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 4:01 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 17 of 3810 (896991)
08-27-2022 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by GDR
08-27-2022 4:21 PM


Rather than reply to your response to my post, it seems more appropriate to respond to this:
Tangle writes:
Here we go again, full circle. Like none of the previous arguments ever happened and now we go through them all agains.

It's the definition of madness.

It was this type of post that caused me to give up on this site in the first place.
But Tangle's describing exactly what you're doing. You're faulting him for this?
You're doing one of the ten most common things people do here, disappear for a while and then return and attempt to reinitiate the discussion from scratch. Dredge and Greatest I am just did this last month. Mike the wiz can't be far behind.
What is the point of this forum then?
I would say that the purpose of this forum is to move discussion constructively forward through moderated debate, but over 20 years of discussion have demonstrated that this just isn't possible. Most everyone with insufficient or no evidence for their position eventually throws up obstacles to discussion or abandons it altogether.
It's perfectly legitimate to eschew examination of the evidential foundations for your beliefs in the Faith and Belief forum, you're well within your rights. You can have a discussion with Phat, Dredge and Greatest I am about different perspectives on God and Jesus. But I don't think the rest of us are interested if you don't first provide some evidence that we're discussing something real.
You have your atheistic beliefs and I have my Christian beliefs. I thought that the idea is to discuss our beliefs.
I'm not an atheist or an agnostic or an adherent to any religion, but I do have spiritual beliefs for which I recognize that I have no evidence whatsoever. If you have beliefs for which you do have evidence then I am very interested, but not otherwise.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 4:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:37 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 23 of 3810 (896998)
08-27-2022 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
08-27-2022 5:08 PM


GDR writes:
Tangle writes:
I no longer think there is any point, it's a form of mental illness, albeit fairly benign.

Then why on earth are you still here, and why bother to reply to my post.
I think all us long timers ask ourselves questions like this. Perhaps something like Tangle's analysis is right. We're in some way obsessed and unable to break away, but it does seem fairly harmless.
But I keep returning to the psychological reasons. Observing people respond when their unevidenced beliefs are challenged is fascinating, though it often reveals a very common pattern where rather than seeing a subtopic explored to a conclusion of some sort they instead change the subject and cycle endlessly through a rotating cast of issues. I don't know that any other outcome is really possible when no evidence is involved, though what constitutes evidence is a common subtopic, for instance like claims that fulfilled prophecy is evidence of God and so forth.
Stick to your guns and your topic. Your encouragement to Tangle to ignore your posts works in the other direction, too. I think only by ignoring us naysayers will you get to discuss your topic. I don't think you'll find the discussion as interesting, but neither will it be as frustrating. Just click the "You have not replied" link at the bottom of the message and it will change to "You have seen this message but not replied," then move on. You can always change your mind later and reply anyway.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 6:17 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 44 of 3810 (897031)
08-28-2022 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by GDR
08-27-2022 6:17 PM


GDR writes:
For example why is it that your reject all that you do and simply call yourself spiritual.
That's your takeaway from what I said? Interesting. I think you may be interpreting what people say about their own beliefs through a lens of your own beliefs. I am not seeking spiritual answers. That's your gig. In my world the spiritual realm has no more reality than hobbits.
But clearly you don't believe us when we say we literally give it no thought. You instead see us as in a state of conscious and effortful denial and rejection of the Lord of the universe whose proof lies in every blade of grass.
How does that impact your life.
How does what I really said about my beliefs impact my life? Other than influencing what I say in religious discussions like this, not one whit. Why would I ever spend any time thinking about things I have no evidence are real, like griffins and gods, let alone let them influence my life?
Yes I do have reasons for believing what I do which isn't to say that some of the reasons aren't simply cultural and from other influences in my life. I joke that I am the only one who has their theology 100% correct but I know full well that isn't the case. Even one of my favourite theologians, N T Wright, often says in his lectures that about 1/3 of what he is going to say will be wrong with the problem being that he doesn't know which 1/3 it is. I'm probably more in the 3/4 bracket.
Let me paraphrase this back to you, but with a different subject of focus:
quote:
Yes I do have reasons for believing the ether exists, which isn't to say that some of the reasons aren't simply personal or from other scientists I find influential. I joke that I am the only one who has their science 100% correct but I know full well that isn't the case. Even one of my favorite scientists often says in his lectures that about 1/3 of what he is going to say will be wrong with the problem being that he doesn't know which 1/3 it is. I'm probably more in the 3/4 bracket.
If after saying this I state that I still believe the ether exists then I am obviously just believing what I want to believe. And that's how we see you. In our view, your writings do not support what you believe. They're just the mental meanderings of someone who despite all the evidence to the contrary believes that information leading him to what he should truly believe is out there somewhere.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 6:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 45 of 3810 (897032)
08-28-2022 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by GDR
08-28-2022 1:58 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
I'd suggest that there is considerable evidence but nothing that constitutes proof.
In the real world, which includes science, there's no such thing as proof. That's the realm of mathematics. If you have "considerable evidence" for your beliefs then we would like an opportunity to examine it.
There is the fine tuning of the universe required to facilitate life as outlined in the anthropic principle. There is a fact that not only does our world support life but it also supports conscious life and even sentient life that can choose between good and evil, can understand and even create beauty, humour and be able to love.

Yes, you can believe in a mindless root cause for all that and evidence that you can, and do, reject it as being evidence for an intelligent cause for it all. It can be accepted or rejected as evidence for such an intelligence.
This is just mental masturbation. There's no evidence in any of this.
What is the evidence you have for a mindless root cause for our existence?
You're asking the wrong question. We accept what the evidence supports. Currently there is no evidence of a cosmic intelligence.
You might be heading down the same path that led you to abandon EvC in the first place. Will we soon see a claim that your evidence satisfies different criteria than those of science but that it is just as valid anyway? If so, this will expose you to the kind of treatment you object to.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 1:58 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 4:36 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 46 of 3810 (897033)
08-28-2022 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
08-28-2022 6:32 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Phat writes:
This is a Faith & Belief Forum. No evidence is required...
But GDR keeps bringing up evidence:
GDR writes:
I'd suggest that there is considerable evidence...
GDR is perfectly within his rights to eschew evidence and instead focus on faith and belief, but he's not. He's put evidence smack in the middle of the table in this thread, even after being reminded that he didn't need to touch on evidence at all.
But as a practical matter there's not much interest in discussions that go, "I believe this," and the other person says, "I believe that," and the first person says, "Interesting, tell me more." People disagree about what they believe, and they advance arguments that they think contain evidence. There's no getting away from it.
And as soon as you start talking about evidence, those of us who have well defined ideas of what constitutes actual evidence are going to chime in. For instance, Jesus's appearing to more than 500 people at once after his resurrection is often cited as evidence by believers, but these are just words on a page, just like the Book of Mormon is words on a page.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 6:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 12:42 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 74 of 3810 (897107)
08-29-2022 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by GDR
08-28-2022 4:36 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
You might be heading down the same path that led you to abandon EvC in the first place. Will we soon see a claim that your evidence satisfies different criteria than those of science but that it is just as valid anyway? If so, this will expose you to the kind of treatment you object to.
The anthropic principle is a product of science and mathematical research. The fact that our universe is so finely tuned as a requirement for our existence is evidence. Science then proposes the multi-verse. That proposal is no more scientific than God did it.
Gee that sounds awfully familiar. Is there any possibility you've already made this argument in other threads and are ignoring that you already know what the responses are? Anyway, don't forget how obviously the banana was designed to fit our hand.
You're pretty much doing just what I expected, and likely exposing yourself to just the kind of treatment you seemed to want to avoid. You might try doing something different.
By the way, the reality of the anthropic principle is that the universe was created to give astronomers and cosmologists a satisfying object of study.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 4:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 2:05 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 78 of 3810 (897116)
08-29-2022 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by GDR
08-29-2022 2:05 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
GDR writes:
AbE please see my post #69
As I progressed on through the thread I read that post, too. I think the area that poses the most risk of generating hard feelings is the nature of evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 2:05 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 2:45 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 98 of 3810 (897143)
08-29-2022 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
08-29-2022 3:23 PM


Re: Making It All Up
Phat writes:
Do you really think that the authors of scripture "made up" a God that they didn't want?
The authors of scripture made up the God they thought would empower them most.
What's wrong with me "making up" the God I want...
Nothing, and no one suggested there was. Just don't pretend that the God you've made up is the God of the Bible.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 3:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 6:45 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 165 of 3810 (897256)
09-01-2022 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
08-31-2022 8:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Where are you quoting from? Instead of lengthy copy/pastes you might want to provide a link.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 8:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 166 of 3810 (897258)
09-01-2022 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
08-28-2022 12:42 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Phat writes:
Percy writes:
And as soon as you start talking about evidence, those of us who have well-defined ideas of what constitutes actual evidence are going to chime in. For instance, Jesus's appearing to more than 500 people at once after his resurrection is often cited as evidence by believers, but these are just words on a page, just like the Book of Mormon is words on a page.
If we can't use words, what do you propose we use? Rocks? Or numbers?
You have cognitive issues.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 12:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 190 of 3810 (897295)
09-02-2022 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by GDR
09-01-2022 1:09 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I had looked at a thread on this forum and was troubled by the ideas expressed in the thread about choosing which god to follow.

My point was that God as we call him reaches out to everyone,...
But those of the qualities of the God you've come to think exists and have chosen to follow. Discussions with you center around your reasons for making the choices you do. You consider them imperatives when they're not. "God as we call him" could be my God who hasn't yet noticed our existence. He has higher goals. We're not the focus of his attention or even awareness.
I used the term "cosmic intelligence" simply so that it would apply to everyone.
And maybe it would if you'd give it a decent definition. As of now is just a blank slate upon which anyone can write whatever they like.
Having faith in God or Jesus is not about giving intellectual assent to any particular doctrine...
Most of the Christian world would disagree with this.
...but about giving heart assent to loving sacrificially. That is where our faith should lie.
Selfless love is a good goal but has little to do with religion, God or Jesus.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 1:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by dwise1, posted 09-02-2022 11:41 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 2:32 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 191 of 3810 (897296)
09-02-2022 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by GDR
09-01-2022 2:29 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
The point I’m trying to make in this thread is that altruistic behaviour comes from cosmic intelligence.
You're getting deep into the woo-woo.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 2:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 2:07 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 193 of 3810 (897299)
09-02-2022 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by GDR
09-01-2022 4:41 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
PaulK writes:
And where does this cosmic intelligence get it���s morality from? Or doesn���t it have one?
Can you describe the details of how you copy/paste? Are you first composing your message in some editing tool and then copy/pasting over? Maybe you're using a font that your browser isn't familiar with? I want to understand how apostrophes get turned into these monstrosities so I can figure out how to prevent it from happening.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by GDR, posted 09-01-2022 4:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by GDR, posted 09-02-2022 2:05 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22670
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 252 of 3810 (897385)
09-04-2022 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by GDR
09-03-2022 2:32 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Maybe. We all put faith in something.
Too general. Anyway, the most significant difference between our beliefs is that I know there's no evidence for what I believe and you don't.
A "cosmic intelligence" is a not of our universe intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
It is actually unicorns living on Alpha Centauri who are responsible for our existence.
A "cosmic intelligence" is a not of our universe intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
I couldn't make grammatical sense of this, but I think I get your drift. But seriously, it's unicorns.
Quite possibly. To be called a Christian would require believing the basic doctrines of Christianity but the Biblical message is that it is all about condition of the heart. I'd suggest that the ultimate meaning of following Jesus is about following His way of loving the other, and to have faith that best explains how we should conduct our lives.
I follow the unicorns.
Percy writes:
Selfless love is a good goal but has little to do with religion, God or Jesus.

It would say that it doesn't have to, but that it often does.
It too often doesn't and too often results in people shooting at each other and hurling missiles across borders.
As I continue to study and discuss my faith I continually find that I am believing things now that I would have disagree with previously, and that is because of the theistic position that I started out with.
So you feel you're getting closer? Why couldn't it be that you're getting further? You have nothing to go by other than what beliefs you find most appealing at the time.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 09-03-2022 2:32 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Theodoric, posted 09-04-2022 3:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 276 by GDR, posted 09-05-2022 12:53 PM Percy has replied

  
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