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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 25 of 3812 (897000)
08-27-2022 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by GDR
08-27-2022 5:37 PM


Welcome Back GDR
Welcome back, guy. How you been? I see you haven't converted to atheist yet.
Firstly, I contend that there is only one cosmic intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
I’d ask, based on what, but I think I know the answer. It certainly isn’t on our experiences with reality.
As theists we all form our own view of the nature of our deity and that is an issue of faith.
I would venture that most people, by a vast majority, accept the god of their family, most often being the one of the larger culture. They don’t give the matter much thought after that and it seems for most this is where the story ends. Kids don’t get to select different mascots for school. They learn to love the one the school gives them and they do so without question. So people have a ready rote response to the question “Who’s your god?” The attributes of said favored god are no issue for most. As the kids are told, since he is god he can do anything and we do not question. I’m thinking the nature of the deity means very little to most people’s selection … a selection which they didn’t consciously make anyway.
Secondly I suggest that the Bible was inspired.
I know. No reality. Faith only. Got it.
The more modern scholarship analyses the ancient texts, their tone and syntax along with their history, the more clear it becomes that this bible, in whatever of it’s various incarnations, is lacking efficacy.
But, hey. You have faith. It’s majik. All the defects are fixed.
I used the term “cosmic intelligence” purposely as it doesn’t have to imply a single entity.
Since it is a fantasy it can have any attributes you so desire.
Ultimately, if we spend the time thinking about such things, we can choose between atheism, deism or theism.
No, GDR. The choice is between reality and fantasy.
If evolution is used as evidence for atheism, then that is a faith claim and not scientific.
The only ones trying this ruse are the fundamentalist theists. Actual atheists know better. Evolution is evidence of the great diversity of organisms life spawned on this planet with fiat creation playing no part whatsoever.
I simply look upon it as an incredibly beautiful and well thought out way of developing life. That leaves me with a cosmic intelligence.
You are not seeing the same evolution this world actually experiences. Evolution is a messy, complex turmoil of competing forces with death at every turn. Not beautiful in the least. And so disjointed and haphazard it is clear evolution cannot design but throws layers of complexity on top of other existing complexity and periodically getting something that survives. Your view of beautiful is lacking. Fascinating is the word to use. Evolution is fascinating.
The fact that this is such a universal axiom does lead in the direction that the desire of any cosmic intelligence would be that we should live with that as our world view.
No it does not. It leads to the already known “social animal” aspects of our evolution up from fish. The golden rule is a survival strategy that works in a social species. There’s no super majical element to it. We’ve looked. We know this one.
I understand your articles of faith. I do not understand an intelligent guy needing such imaginary crutches to deal with this world. You have a cognitive screw loose, GDR. You are letting a fantasy world lead you by the nose.
But, hey, till you die it’s your world. Have at it.
However, it appears that I'm not a good fit here
Well, you’re not much of an atheist. And as an anti-theist you are hopelessly incompetent. But as a religious weenie you fit right in. Just what our discussions need.
Welcome back again.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 5:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 7:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 28 of 3812 (897003)
08-27-2022 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by GDR
08-27-2022 6:17 PM


I am interested in other views but I'm pretty much only hearing that I am wrong and rehashing old material.
Well, yes. That is what's happening. Some of these other views you are interested in are not going to be supportive. Especially from the non-fantasy non-religious side.
I know that puts a damper on discussion since whenever we seek evidence for the stuff you are putting forward you can't produce any. It's all faith and faith can be anything. Why do you not give your cosmic consciousness a pulsating green strobe? It's just fantasy and can be anything. Why did your imagination not conjure other attributes along with cosmic and consciousness? Does it wear a Tam O'Sha but you're keeping that from us?
You have to know that you cannot just say it is and, even for the sake of discussion, expect us to accept whatever crazy fantasy you conjure. We're going to make fun of your inability to support your points with anything other than vaporware, fantasyware. We're going to tell you you are wrong when you're wrong.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 6:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 29 of 3812 (897004)
08-27-2022 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
08-27-2022 7:48 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
After much study and thought i believe that my beliefs represent what I believe to be true.
Yeah, I believe what I believe too. The difference is I have evidence for my views.
What kinds of evidence from a fantasy realm could inform your beliefs? Emotional syllogisms? Bad math? More fantasies?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 7:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 1:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 1709 by Phat, posted 01-09-2023 3:09 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 31 of 3812 (897006)
08-27-2022 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
08-27-2022 7:48 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZPaul3 writes:

No, GDR. The choice is between reality and fantasy.
That is your statement of belief.
No, GDR, that is a statement of fact. It is a binary problem. It is either real or it is fantasy. And since, for the most part, we can easily tell the difference, the distinctions are not difficult to make.
In the case you were presenting deist/theist is acknowledged fantasy since they lack any evidence of efficacy. So the choice you offered was religious fantasy vs not.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 7:48 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 32 of 3812 (897007)
08-27-2022 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
08-27-2022 7:48 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
I missed this.
I see a world where we struggle between often choosing between our own good at the expense of another as opposed to loving others at the expense of the self. I believe by faith, and by observation, that we are called to choose the latter.
I see a world where we struggle between often choosing between our own good at the expense of another as opposed to loving others at the expense of the self. I believe by common good that we are compelled to choose the latter.
We could get matching shirts saying "I'm a Humanist". Don't need the twisted illogical baggage of some fantasy religion.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 7:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 2:02 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 39 of 3812 (897020)
08-28-2022 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by GDR
08-28-2022 1:58 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZPaul3 writes:
Yeah, I believe what I believe too. The difference is I have evidence for my views.
You keep saying that what you believe is evidenced based. What is that evidence?
Physics. All of it. We may not know where it all came from but we know what it all has, and has not, done since the first second of creation. There is nothing in the universe that indicates even a hint of the kinds of super intellect or devine universal Grand Poobah you posit. And since we know the physics so well, we can tell no god has interfered with this universe because there is no trail of causality/effect where there damn well should be if your fantasies were real and some god intervened.
AZPaul3 writes:
What kinds of evidence from a fantasy realm could inform your beliefs?
I'd suggest that there is considerable evidence but nothing that constitutes proof.
Ahh, the Dredge syndrome.
That’s ok, GDR. This is science and we don’t deal in proof. We deal in the preponderance of the evidence and the processes they reveal. There is nothing else.
Again, there is nothing else … that anyone can show.
There is the fine tuning of the universe required to facilitate life …
I site the same laundry list to evidence a natural world sans your fine tuning. We know how many of these, especially the emotions, manifest in our heads, causing good boys to be bad and bad boys to be good by messing with their brains chemically and physically. We know how these things work and how they work by, what appears to be, only natural processes. No gods necessary or evident.
Fine tuning is a human artifact created to give the gods a hand in the universe. It is a bogus concept and, based upon discussions this forum has had in the past, appears to fine tune the universe, not for life, but for stars. Life = 1. Stars = 1024. What this universe is showing us is it prodigiously creates stars from this supposed fine tuning.
Yes, you can believe in a mindless root cause for all that and evidence that you can, and do, reject it as being evidence for an intelligent cause for it all. It can be accepted or rejected as evidence for such an intelligence.
Without a reason grounded in physical evidence, there is no reason to entertain fantasy. Without such, your conjecture is useless. Such can never be accepted. There is nothing there.
What is the evidence you have for a mindless root cause for our existence?
The fact that, in all the universe, there is no other viable option.
Ok, plus a trillion, trillion or so items from literally all the sciences showing, as a clear preponderance of the evidence, that all processes ever observed, either directly or indirectly, are natural in origin and operation. There has never been any hint of evidence of the majik you seek to believe to spark such a speculation.
Now, please understand, you are into items we have exceptional confidence in. To challenge the science saying this majik occurred is to lose the argument instantly, unless you can provide more and stronger evidence than we have for our side. I don’t think you can do that.
I don’t think you can ever provide the kinds and numbers of evidences of your fantasies that could challenge the reality as our sciences have revealed it. And remember, please, we are talking about a total zip on direct evidence you could point to that could only be done by a god but also the marks on the universe that should be there scratched in the heavens if the stories of your gods were real. In this universe even your god must obey Mother Nature.

Edited by AZPaul3, .


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 1:58 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 6:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 5:26 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 40 of 3812 (897026)
08-28-2022 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
08-28-2022 2:02 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Again, that is a statement of belief, and even if we accept it as fact it does not in any way eliminate the possibility that we are that way because we are designed that way.
Yes it was a statement of humanist belief. It mirrored your statement quite precisely. This society does not need religious structure to invoke humanist actions. There is reason enough just in being human.
What eliminates the possibility of us being designed is the total lack of any evidence (yeah, that old mantra) to suppose this is even possible. You have to first show a designer, then the method, then the ...
It goes on. You provide nothing to support such a notion. Why do you bring it up? You provide no reason for anyone to entertain such a thing as viable.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 2:02 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 6:35 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 43 of 3812 (897030)
08-28-2022 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
08-28-2022 6:32 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Well, Phat man, when you are right, you are right. I am not a fan of theisms of any kind and like snakes and wasps, when ya see one ya gotta kill it.
I do feel I've hijacked GDR's thread. He wanted to talk about selection criteria for gods and I storm in here demanding reality from a fantasy thread.
I think I'll bow out here and let you all entertain us with your imaginings.
Thanks, again, Phat.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 6:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 63 of 3812 (897056)
08-28-2022 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by GDR
08-28-2022 5:26 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
So you're saying that lack of scientific evidence is evidence.
Really?
The owner said his house burned down but when investigators got on scene they see no evidence of a house or of a fire. No disturbances in the ground where a slab should have been and no left over traces of soot, ash and other remnants of fire. The scientific evidence of no trace of house and no trace of fire when the experience of physics demands there be both seriously questions the efficacy of the initial report.
In particle physics when the hypothesis states the sproton particle (supersymmetric brother of the proton) should be found at 200 GeV and nothing is found at that energy then, yes, that fact of finding nothing is a data point in evidence.
A meddlesome god rampaging across earth and sky flooding everything, stopping the sun, instant fiat creation and dozens of other stories from (some version of) a bible would leave traces of its deeds. There should be hundreds of facts, data points of physics, evidencing the efficacy of these god stories. We find none.
“But our god is majik and faked over the evidence.” There is the appeal to hidden unknown, unknowable, majik. End of discussion. You lose.
So, yes, a lack of expected physical evidence where there should be is strong evidence itself. This cannot be that difficult to understand.
Outlining processes just tell us what happened, it doesn't tell us why it happened.
Layering cognition over some instincts does not make the instinct disappear. We are still animals and our success in evolution has been to adapt. Emotions are enhancements of instinct. Their use, growth, remission, expression, etc., appears to be chemically controlled and subject to the same variations of the genotype as eye color or dick size. Whatever conveys a reproductive advantage will be strengthened and spread through the population.
That is how emotions got here. They conveyed a growing survival advantage to a social species. Apply the same to the processes of sentience.
Fine, but then why do these processes exist at all? Outlining processes just tell us what happened, it doesn't tell us why it happened.
What part of “conveys a reproductive advantage” do you not understand? Not just the ability but the qualia of the ability. Any trait (emotional, intellectual, physical) that gives more reproductive babies is apt to be strengthened and extended in the following generations. That is why our emotions and intellect grew to the levels we experience. Reproductive advantage.
But the no-god cause is just conjecture as well.
It is the reality we see before us. There is nothing to indicate there is anything else.
Says you. There is considerable opinion amongst scientists that contend that there is a theistic option.
No there are not. Not any actual scientists. Maybe ex-scientists who, like Hoyle, have come to an end of their intellect and have gone off into your type of la-la land. If you look hard enough you can find a shill who will profess that Zyklon B is a good thing.
The preponderance of the facts and the preponderance of the scientists hold no such notions, GDR. You are reaching well beyond your grasp. You can get an idea how strong that preponderance can get by looking at Project Steve - Wikipedia
Just as there is no direct scientific evidence for a 100% materialistic toot cause for all these processes.
But, in fact there is. It is all around you. There is nothing in this universe that is NOT 100% materialistic. What you mean is that there is no evidence that this universe consists of anything other than 100% materialistic.

Edited by AZPaul3, .

Edited by AZPaul3, .


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 5:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 100 of 3812 (897154)
08-29-2022 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by GDR
08-29-2022 5:26 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
I think you each have different nuances in your definitions of universal.
Universal as in most know about it (like red/green traffic lights) vs universal as in connected to the vibes of the universe?
Clarifications of your meanings might help.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by GDR, posted 08-29-2022 5:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 102 of 3812 (897157)
08-29-2022 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Stile
08-29-2022 3:35 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Stile writes:
I'm not as confident in not worrying about it. I have a fear that there could be someone watching, possibly not even a "good" someone.. and I'm screwing myself over. But - it's not a big fear. Just one of those every-now-and-then pangs that quickly gets overcome by a sense of following Love to do what I can, when I can, and feeling confident in my own justifications for my actions.
The thing is, even if that fear became reality, if it was known for sure that God existed and He was watching... I'd like to think that I wouldn't care, and still do whatever I thought was best (after taking in whatever advice we could get from this positively-existing God, anyway.) Even if it meant eternal torture (we can assume the god isn't "God" at this point.) I don't know if I'd be able to do that... eternal torture is a pretty good threat. I've done worse for less! That would be an interesting (but very scary) world, for sure.
I remembered hearing something very much like this. Took me a while to find it but I think it fits your views quite well.
quote:
“Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no, it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand'ring barque,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.”
  —Shakespeare Sonnet 116
This be not error.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 3:35 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 08-30-2022 1:57 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 117 of 3812 (897180)
08-30-2022 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Stile
08-30-2022 1:57 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
I've always had a difficult time parsing Shakespeare...
I find the key to understanding The Bard is to reorder the structure into complete sentences then decipher from there. A big mistake people make is stopping to take a pause at the end of each line regardless of the punctuation. If the line ends and there is no period, don't pause, don't stop reciting. The seeming disordered nature of poetry is to lend a rhythm and meter to the spoken word on stage.
"Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments."
Let me not interfere between those who love each other.
"Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, or bends with the remover to remove."
Love is not fickle and stands in the face of adversity. Nor does it break with infidelity.
"O no, it is an ever-fixed mark that looks on tempests and is never shaken;"
Yeah, love is pretty strong.
"It is the star to every wand'ring barque, whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken."
Love is like a guiding star for every wandering ship (soul) whose value is unknown but promises great reward.
"Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks within his bending sickle's compass come;"
Love does not change with time, though physical beauty wanes as a sickle worn with age.
"Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, but bears it out even to the edge of doom."
Love is for all time, unto death.
"If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved.”
If I am wrong about these thoughts on love then I recant all I have ever written since no man has ever loved.

Edited by AZPaul3, .


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 08-30-2022 1:57 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 120 of 3812 (897184)
08-30-2022 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
08-30-2022 3:59 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
He does not simply help everybody.
What happened to his infinite love for his creation?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 3:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 2:24 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(4)
Message 126 of 3812 (897203)
08-31-2022 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
08-31-2022 2:24 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
First, God waited 400 years before judging these nations, which reminds us that He is very long-suffering.
Long suffering from what? Ego? Megalomania? His toys don't want to play nice with him? What the hell kind of his 400 year suffering justifies an eternity in a lake of fire?
That makes him a god damned monster, Phat.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 2:24 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 8:04 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8615
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 158 of 3812 (897248)
08-31-2022 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
08-31-2022 8:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
So how bad were those so-called reprobates?
We labeled the Japanese with each of those sins during WWII. The enemy always rapes children and eats babies. Your apologists offer nothing more than any other them-hating propagandists.
The reprobate nations had to be destroyed because they were polluting the innocence and purity of the chosen ones.
Phat, please open your eyes to what you write. The “reprobate nations had to be destroyed” so that land, water, power could be aggregated and controlled along with the gold and the women that came with them. Politics hasn't changed that much in the last 3500 years. This ethnic cleansing along with Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah, the bald prophet, Aaron’s sons and all the other death at the hands of your god, the things you and your apologists just pointed to, is testament to his evil by any measure.
God, as shown in a tribe of violently religious zealots rampaging through the Levant, continuing with Christianity in Europe and the Americas and now with Islam around the world, your god is a damned monster. You can keep the fucking excuses and the sick justifications.
Your god is a fake yet he continues to kill people by the boatload just on his influence as acculturated into you. It is evil, Phat. Evil as in needlessly painful, bloody and fatal for all humanity all over the world. You sustain that evil vehicle in this society, Phat.
Stop believing. For the good of humanity, let it die.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 08-31-2022 8:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 12:51 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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