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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 1 of 3810 (896966)
08-27-2022 1:59 PM


I left this site some time back as IMHO name calling and put down too often took the place of reasoned discussion. I’ll have another go at it.
In the “I Know that God does not exist” thread there are over 3000 posts, which had largely left the original topic so I thought that I would start a new topic on where that thread had eventually gone.
There are two points I’d like to make.
Firstly, I contend that there is only one cosmic intelligence that is responsible for our existence. It doesn’t matter what name you give that deity, it might be god, allah or zeuss. What matters is the characteristics or nature of the deity. As theists we all form our own view of the nature of our deity and that is an issue of faith. (For that matter everyone has a world view and live by some code whether they adhere to it or not.) My point is that it isn’t about choosing which deity that we choose to worship, but the nature of whatever deity we choose.
Secondly I suggest that the Bible was inspired. Now when I say that I recognize that people have been inspired to do all sorts of things. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings was inspired. So yes, I agree that God inspired people to write their stories and understandings, in the case of the OT, of Yahweh and then in the NT of Jesus as the true representative of Yahweh. That does not mean that He told them what to write, but to simply tell their stories and their beliefs which were all ultimately combined to make up the 66 books of the Bible.
So then as Christians we have to start with Jesus. I think a good place in how to understand that is when John in his gospel says that the “Word became Flesh” with Word representing God’s nature. Jesus said that we should “love our enemy”, “turn the other cheek”, “go the extra mile etc. He called us to love others and beyond that to love others sacrificially. That is the great commission. How then do you square that with the OT contending that Yahweh committed genocide, ordered His followers to commit genocide and even to have the community stone to death neighbours for ridiculous offences. YOU CAN’T. As humans we all look for “Blessed Assurance”. It is a faith. So then, is our faith in Jesus as God’s representative or in a literal reading of an inerrant Bible. It can’t be both.
The other Biblical translation for inspired is God breathed. I contend that is a better term. God breaths life into the Scriptures so that we can read the genocidal accounts and understand just how easy it is for us as humans to hate, and completely walk the opposite road to the road that Jesus calls us to walk.
For too many years the church has put the emphasis on personal salvation. All humanity, (and maybe even beyond humanity), are chosen. However, we aren’t chosen for salvation, but for vocation. We are all called to spread God’s love as embodied by Jesus into the world. As to what happens to us after our deaths is in God’s hands and with the resurrected Jesus we do have a small glimpse of what that might be.

Edited by GDR, : separated paragraphs

Edited by GDR, : Spaced the paragraphs and added my signature


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 2:55 PM GDR has replied
 Message 6 by nwr, posted 08-27-2022 3:34 PM GDR has replied
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 3:42 PM GDR has replied
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2022 4:16 PM GDR has replied
 Message 49 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 12:40 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 65 by Stile, posted 08-29-2022 12:42 PM GDR has replied
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 12:57 PM GDR has replied
 Message 196 by ringo, posted 09-02-2022 11:46 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2111 by Greatest I am, posted 02-18-2023 1:49 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 8 of 3810 (896982)
08-27-2022 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
08-27-2022 2:55 PM


Percy writes:
You contend that there's such a thing as "cosmic intelligence" based on what? And why can there be only one?
I used the term “cosmic intelligence” purposely as it doesn’t have to imply a single entity.
Ultimately, if we spend the time thinking about such things, we can choose between atheism, deism or theism. I agree that we can be agnostic and just say that we can’t know but that simply means that it could be any of the three.
I eliminate atheism strictly on the fact that conscious sentient life arising mindlessly from basic particles requires more faith than I can muster. If evolution is used as evidence for atheism, then that is a faith claim and not scientific. I simply look upon it as an incredibly beautiful and well thought out way of developing life. That leaves me with a cosmic intelligence.
Percy writes:
If there really is such a thing as "cosmic intelligence" and that there is only one, why does it follow that it's a deity?
I’d say that if this cosmic intelligence is responsible for life then that would meet the qualifications.
Percy writes:
Didn't see this leap coming. Don't you first have to at least advance evidence for your first and second claims? If those were just axioms to be accepted before you moved on to discussing Jesus then that isn't a topic that interests me.
My first two claims simply were that as humans we have some world view which we sometimes live by or sometimes reject for selfish reasons. All major religions have the “Golden Rule” somewhere in their holy books, regardless of the name you give to that entity. I’m sure that the vast majority of the world, including atheists accepts that as at least a good idea. The fact that this is such a universal axiom does lead in the direction that the desire of any cosmic intelligence would be that we should live with that as our world view.
As Christians we should look at Jesus to understand how that plays out in our lives. Muslims would look to the Qur’an, Buddhists look to Buddha, atheists look to themselves and their society and so on. I liked Bob Dylans’ phrase when he wrote “You’ve Got to Serve Somebody”. We can discern the nature of a cosmic intelligence through more than just the Christian faith, however I do as a Christian believe on faith that Jesus perfectly represented the nature of the God, which is the name Christians give the cosmic intelligence.

Edited by Admin, : Fix typo in closing quote code for first quote.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 2:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 3:37 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 11 of 3810 (896985)
08-27-2022 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by nwr
08-27-2022 3:34 PM


nwr writes:
I doubt that there is any such thing as a cosmic intelligence. The closest we get to that is with thoughtful people working together. The cooperative enterprise of science does pretty well. But the creationists reject them.
Firstly, if we twist the Bible into a book that tells us how He created in a scientific sense then I contend that we will get a warped view of the Christian faith. Creationism the belief of a particular group of Christians. I think that the problem arises as we want to use the entire Bible as story give us clear answers. The problem is if you decide you can't believe some particular thing in one of the books then you have to disbelieve the whole thing.
nwr writes:
I agree with your criticism of the church. However, I stopped believing in the resurrection long ago. Apart from that, I do think yours makes for a better outlook on life that what typically comes from the churches.
Yes, it is a faith issue, however I believe that it makes more sense of the rise of Christianity in the world than does any other explanation. As a theist I see no reason to believe that a cosmic intelligence isn't capable of such a thing.
I agree that we can see how co-operation between individuals and even nations works well. There i no reason to conclude one way or the other. It is faith issue to conclude atheism from that. It can just as well conclude, (and I contend that it is a much more likely conclusion), that it has an intelligent root cause.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nwr, posted 08-27-2022 3:34 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 12 of 3810 (896986)
08-27-2022 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
08-27-2022 4:14 PM


Tangle writes:
Here we go again, full circle. Like none of the previous arguments ever happened and now we go through them all agains.

It's the definition of madness.
It was this type of post that caused me to give up on this site in the first place.
What is the point of this forum then? You have your atheistic beliefs and I have my Christian beliefs. I thought that the idea is to discuss our beliefs.
You are certainly free to ignore anything I write.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2022 4:14 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2022 4:44 PM GDR has replied
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 4:56 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 13 of 3810 (896987)
08-27-2022 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
08-27-2022 4:16 PM


PaulK writes:
I will simply note that your failure to engage in reasoned discussion was a major part of the problem.
Do people have to agree with you to make it a reasoned discussion?
PaulK writes:
The question here is why should it be a matter of choice. If there is a real deity - as you claim - it is the way it is. Your choice won’t change that.
True enough, but it does help me form my world view and let me know why it is important.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2022 4:16 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2022 4:35 PM GDR has replied
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 2:37 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 16 of 3810 (896990)
08-27-2022 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
08-27-2022 3:42 PM


Re: We aren’t chosen for salvation, but for vocation.
Hi Phat. Congrats on your perseverance.
Phat writes:
it would still mean that God chose ALL for vocation. This lines up with jars argument that we are Christians based on what we *Do*.
No, I don't see it that way. When we read the Bible holistically we can understand that what God is concerned about is our hearts. The OT largely felt that to get Yahweh on your side you had to follow a set of laws. Jesus' message was that it wasn't about the laws of the church but about the law of the heart which was simply that we are called to love sacrificially. Doing Good Works in order to get God on your side becomes simply another law akin to circumcision.
One place that this is clear is in Matt 25 and the sheep and the goats. The sheep did what they did in giving up time and resources to help others, (and here is the key), they were doing it without realizing that by doing what they did they were serving God. They were doing it because that was where their hearts were. Good deeds if done to get yourself in good with God may well help someone but from a heart POV they are worthless.
Phat writes:
A lot of my critics here at EvC claim that the OT God was a Monster, but my explanation is that the warlike people wanted (and thus interpreted) God as a warmongering monster. They essentially put words in Yahweh's mouth.
Yes, they all had their motivations for what they wrote. All through the Gospels we can see that the disciples were still looking for a military victory over the Romans. In Acts 1 we can still see that they thought the resurrected Jesus had returned to do just that. Essentially Jesus did believe in the revolution but only in non-violent revolution. His message was that it wasn't the Romans that were the problem, but the enemy was really the evil in the world, and that the weapon against evil is love.
Phat writes:
If anyone thinks that is only an ancient trait, look at believers in any modern war. We tend to cherry-pick verses that have God blessing us and supporting our war while opposing the "intrinsic evil" of the enemy.
Absolutely.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 3:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 962 by Phat, posted 10-12-2022 6:22 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 18 of 3810 (896992)
08-27-2022 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
08-27-2022 4:44 PM


Tangle writes:
This is just disingenuous. You left because you couldn't persuade us and got frustrated. And you're back to give it another go using the same assertions. Why?
So you know what I was thinking better than I do. Just a tad arrogant. I never really expected to change anyone's beliefs. I only wanted to have a discussion on the major issue in my life, and to get other perspectives.
Tangle writes:
I no longer think there is any point, it's a form of mental illness, albeit fairly benign.
Then why on earth are you still here, and why bother to reply to my post. Most of the theists have left so largely, other than Phat, this has been essentially a site on which and others can discuss the beliefs that you hold in common. So from that POV you are right, and I don't belong here and the whole point of establishing this site has completely changed. If that is the case I will disappear back into the cloud.
Tangle writes:
Yeh, that was the idea, but we did that. What do you have that's new to discuss? What is it that you think hasn't been said?
Maybe I don't have anything new. Beats me. However, I continue to read and my views change over time.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2022 4:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 5:51 PM GDR has replied
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2022 6:02 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 19 of 3810 (896994)
08-27-2022 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by PaulK
08-27-2022 4:35 PM


PaulK writes:
Thank you for that example of the problem - by resorting to false insinuations rather than addressing the issue,

It is not agreement but the ability to engage in reason which is the issue. If you make an obviously false assertion and if your arguments fail to support it and if you do not address the counter arguments - you are not engaging in reasoned discussion.
You made the insinuation that my posts weren't reasoned and yet I have yet to see anyone, including you, tell me why the things that I posted in this thread weren't reasoned. I haven't seen any counter arguments. This is "faith and belief" so no, there are no know-down answers for what I believe.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2022 4:35 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2022 5:35 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 21 of 3810 (896996)
08-27-2022 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Percy
08-27-2022 4:56 PM


Percy writes:
You're doing one of the ten most common things people do here, disappear for a while and then return and attempt to reinitiate the discussion from scratch. Dredge and Greatest I am just did this last month. Mike the wiz can't be far behind.
I checked in on this site recently and I viewed the debate with essentially being between a rejection of Christianity. I was interested in a more generic view that rejected a fundamentalist understanding of the Bible. I thought that I might be able to propose the view of God as a cosmic intelligence that wanted us to live lives that are in line with "The Golden Rule". I expressed the view that this could be help by people of any religion or by anyone with no particular religious belief. I don't think that I had really expressed that POV previously.
AbE Frankly I also came here to learn. I am interested in both science and theology. I have had no scientific background and learned a lot from various members of this forum. Cavediver and Son Guko were particularly informative although often it went over my head. So there was that I enjoyed discussing theology and I gained perspective there. That discussion led me to really appreciate Chris Hitchens where I found often that I agreed more with him than I did the Christians he was debating.
However, it appears that I'm not a good fit here, But I do thank you for the educational tool this forum has been for me.

Edited by GDR, .


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 4:56 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 6:12 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 22 of 3810 (896997)
08-27-2022 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by PaulK
08-27-2022 5:35 PM


PaulK writes:
That certainly does not count as “reasoned”. And if you are “called to spread God’s love as embodied by Jesus into the world” that sort of hostility is counter-productive,
I agree and apologise. I felt that I was responding in kind and that is not justification.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2022 5:35 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2022 2:16 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 26 of 3810 (897001)
08-27-2022 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
08-27-2022 5:51 PM


Percy writes:
I think all us long timers ask ourselves questions like this. Perhaps something like Tangle's analysis is right. We're in some way obsessed and unable to break away, but it does seem fairly harmless.
Prior to reading this I edited my last response to you. I will always be grateful for this forum and the education it gave me.
Percy writes:
But I keep returning to the psychological reasons. Observing people respond when their unevidenced beliefs are challenged is fascinating, though it often reveals a very common pattern where rather than seeing a subtopic explored to a conclusion of some sort they instead change the subject and cycle endlessly through a rotating cast of issues. I don't know that any other outcome is really possible when no evidence is involved, though what constitutes evidence is a common subtopic, for instance like claims that fulfilled prophecy is evidence of God and so forth.

Stick to your guns and your topic. Your encouragement to Tangle to ignore your posts works in the other direction, too. I think only by ignoring us naysayers will you get to discuss your topic. I don't think you'll find the discussion as interesting, but neither will it be as frustrating. Just click the "You have not replied" link at the bottom of the message and it will change to "You have seen this message but not replied," then move on. You can always change your mind later and reply anyway.
The problem is that no naysayer, except Paulk has responded to what I said and asked for the reason for me believing that way, or expressed what they believ in opposition to it.
Yes it is a faith, but we all have unevidenced, (at least from a scientific POV), beliefs. For example why is it that your reject all that you do and simply call yourself spiritual. How does that impact your life. I only say that as we are expressing a picture of our existence based on what is fundamentally on philosophical understandings.
Yes I do have reasons for believing what I do which isn't to say that some of the reasons aren't simply cultural and from other influences in my life. I joke that I am the only one who has their theology 100% correct but I know full well that isn't the case. Even one of my favourite theologians, N T Wright, often says in his lectures that about 1/3 of what he is going to say will be wrong with the problem being that he doesn't know which 1/3 it is. I'm probably more in the 3/4 bracket.
I am interested in other views but I'm pretty much only hearing that I am wrong and rehashing old material.
As I said maybe I'm not a good fit here. Waddaya think?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-27-2022 5:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 8:06 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 30 by nwr, posted 08-27-2022 9:03 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 8:41 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 27 of 3810 (897002)
08-27-2022 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
08-27-2022 6:12 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
I'm out of time so I'll just respond to this for now.
AZPaul3 writes:
Still Christian but hopefully still learning. Thanks for the welcome. Doing well. It's been 7 years since a 10 hour surgery for a olfactory neuro-blastomy as well as radiation and still cancer free.
GDR writes:
Firstly, I contend that there is only one cosmic intelligence that is responsible for our existence.
AZPaul3 writes:
I’d ask, based on what, but I think I know the answer. It certainly isn’t on our experiences with reality.
I mentioned this earlier but in general most people of any or no faith understand that there is both good and evil with all sorts of greys in the middle. The understanding that we seem to hold in common is the golden rule. It is hardly knock down evidence but I think that it is enough to consider that there is a universal truth behind that which would cause us to consider a morality that comes from somewhere other than the self. I think that it is also indicative to consider that if there is something else out there then it has a consistent nature. The main objection to that is in my view is from extreme religious beliefs held by those who want to serve a deity that will then in turn serve themselves.
AZPaul3 writes:
I would venture that most people, by a vast majority, accept the god of their family, most often being the one of the larger culture. They don’t give the matter much thought after that and it seems for most this is where the story ends. Kids don’t get to select different mascots for school. They learn to love the one the school gives them and they do so without question. So people have a ready rote response to the question “Who’s your god?” The attributes of said favored god are no issue for most. As the kids are told, since he is god he can do anything and we do not question. I’m thinking the nature of the deity means very little to most people’s selection … a selection which they didn’t consciously make anyway.
I think that is very often true and I would agree that I am affected by my upbringing. However I spent considerable time in a very secular environment, (air force), spent many years as seeing it all irrelevant as an agnostic so in many ways my culture took me away from whatever tenuous Christian beliefs I had.
I came to Christianity by CS Lewis and Mere Christianity. Since then however I have read hundreds of books from people as diverse as Richard Dawkins and even some fundamentalists.
GDR writes:
Secondly I suggest that the Bible was inspired.
AZPaul3 writes:
I know. No reality. Faith only. Got it.

The more modern scholarship analyses the ancient texts, their tone and syntax along with their history, the more clear it becomes that this bible, in whatever of it’s various incarnations, is lacking efficacy.

But, hey. You have faith. It’s majik. All the defects are fixed.
You kinda cherry picked that statement. I went on to explain what I meant by that. I would agree that Beethoven was inspired to write music. I am only saying that the Biblical authors were inspired to write about their world and their understandings. When the Bible said that Yahweh committed and commanded genocide and public stoning I believe that the motivation in writing that was self centred and wrong.
I don't believe that the Bible being inspired in any way means that it was dictated by God.
Paul3 writes:
Since it is a fantasy it can have any attributes you so desire.
Yes, it is faith. I see a world where we struggle between often choosing between our own good at the expense of another as opposed to loving others at the expense of the self. I believe by faith, and by observation, that we are called to choose the latter.
So yes, even if my Christian beliefs are out of whack, I will hold on to that belief.
AZPaul3 writes:
No, GDR. The choice is between reality and fantasy.
That is your statement of belief.
AZPaul3 writes:
You are not seeing the same evolution this world actually experiences. Evolution is a messy, complex turmoil of competing forces with death at every turn. Not beautiful in the least. And so disjointed and haphazard it is clear evolution cannot design but throws layers of complexity on top of other existing complexity and periodically getting something that survives. Your view of beautiful is lacking. Fascinating is the word to use. Evolution is fascinating.
NOthing there that I disagree with. IMHO it is far more likely to have an intelligent root that it is to have a mindless root.
AZPaul3 writes:
No it does not. It leads to the already known “social animal” aspects of our evolution up from fish. The golden rule is a survival strategy that works in a social species. There’s no super majical element to it. We’ve looked. We know this one.
Darwin agreed with the statement that evolution involved the survival of the fittest. I'm involved with a school for homeless young women in Uganda. I would be better off if there was no human life in Uganda and my society could have access to all their resources. Evolution does not explain altruism, again IMHO.
AZPaul3 writes:
I understand your articles of faith. I do not understand an intelligent guy needing such imaginary crutches to deal with this world. You have a cognitive screw loose, GDR. You are letting a fantasy world lead you by the nose.
After much study and thought i believe that my beliefs represent what I believe to be true. I see Christianity as making more sense of the world that I exist in than any other view that I have encountered.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 6:12 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 8:31 PM GDR has replied
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 9:04 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 9:24 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 33 of 3810 (897013)
08-28-2022 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by AZPaul3
08-27-2022 8:31 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZPaul3 writes:
Yeah, I believe what I believe too. The difference is I have evidence for my views.
You keep saying that what you believe is evidenced based. What is that evidence?
AZPaul3 writes:
What kinds of evidence from a fantasy realm could inform your beliefs?
I'd suggest that there is considerable evidence but nothing that constitutes proof.
There is the fine tuning of the universe required to facilitate life as outlined in the anthropic principle. There is a fact that not only does our world support life but it also supports conscious life and even sentient life that can choose between good and evil, can understand and even create beauty, humour and be able to love.
Yes, you can believe in a mindless root cause for all that and evidence that you can, and do, reject it as being evidence for an intelligent cause for it all. It can be accepted or rejected as evidence for such an intelligence.
What is the evidence you have for a mindless root cause for our existence?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 8:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 3:24 AM GDR has replied
 Message 45 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 8:56 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 34 of 3810 (897015)
08-28-2022 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
08-27-2022 9:24 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
AZPaul3 writes:
I see a world where we struggle between often choosing between our own good at the expense of another as opposed to loving others at the expense of the self. I believe by common good that we are compelled to choose the latter.
Again, that is a statement of belief, and even if we accept it as fact it does not in any way eliminate the possibility that we are that way because we are designed that way.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2022 9:24 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 4:44 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 59 of 3810 (897052)
08-28-2022 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Percy
08-28-2022 8:56 AM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Percy writes:
You might be heading down the same path that led you to abandon EvC in the first place. Will we soon see a claim that your evidence satisfies different criteria than those of science but that it is just as valid anyway? If so, this will expose you to the kind of treatment you object to.
The anthropic principle is a product of science and mathematical research. The fact that our universe is so finely tuned as a requirement for our existence is evidence. Science then proposes the multi-verse. That proposal is no more scientific than God did it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 8:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2022 5:02 PM GDR has replied
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 08-29-2022 2:01 PM GDR has replied

  
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