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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 2430 of 3810 (910991)
05-30-2023 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2410 by AZPaul3
05-17-2023 3:33 PM


Re: AZ Conclusions...Difficult Answers
Hi Paul,
Paul writes:
Did science exist before humans described it?
Do you think some school of T-rex's came up with it first?
I have a follow up question to Phats question.
Did gravity exist before the earth was inhabited?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2410 by AZPaul3, posted 05-17-2023 3:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2431 by dwise1, posted 05-30-2023 10:01 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 2434 by AZPaul3, posted 05-31-2023 2:59 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 3157 of 3810 (913675)
11-27-2023 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3101 by candle2
11-02-2023 9:54 AM


Re: candle2, So Just What are "Created Kinds"?
Hi candle2
I will also say hi to everyone else as it has been sometime since I have visited. I been very busy with my duties.
quote:
Dwise, when Genesis plainly states that all life forms,
including plants and trees, were created on the 3rd, 5th,
and 6th days of creation week, and I believe it, how is
that against creation?
Genesis chapter one does not state any such thing.
It does state 3 creation events recorded in the following verses.
Genesis 1:1
quote:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:20
quote:
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
I have to insert here that the only thing created in this verse is (whales) but the word translated whales means sea monsters.
The living creature and every fowl was called forth out of the water after their kind.
Genesis 1:20
quote:
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Genesis 1:27
quote:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The universe and everything in it was created in Genesis 1:1 in the beginning whenever that was which no one knows. YEC's tell me about 6k to 10k years ago. Scientist and posters here tell me 13.8 billion years and others even 20 billion.
The fish to swallow Jonah in verse 21.
Mankind in verse 27.
Jonah 1:17
quote:
Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
The Hebrew word translated as great fish here is the same word translated whale in Genesis 1:21.
All other places you find the Hebrew word translated as created in the book of Genesis is referring to one of the 3 events recorded in Genesis chapter one.
There was some things He created before He created the darkness found at Genesis 1:2 one of them being evil.
quote:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
If anyone has any other event of something being created in Genesis chapter 1 please let me know.
How old is the universe? I believe as Einstein did (until he was told it was expanding) that it has always existed in some form. Had he read the Bible he would have found out that God had stretched out the heavens.
Isaiah 45:7
quote:
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3101 by candle2, posted 11-02-2023 9:54 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3158 by AZPaul3, posted 11-27-2023 10:51 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 3160 by candle2, posted 11-28-2023 8:15 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3161 of 3810 (913683)
11-29-2023 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 3158 by AZPaul3
11-27-2023 10:51 PM


Re: candle2, So Just What are "Created Kinds"?
Hi Paul
Welcome back Reverend.
Thanks
quote:
So your gods created the whales
According to the meaning of the Hebrew word translated whales He created a sea monster.
quote:
while all other living creatures and every fowl was called forth out of the water after their kind. Natural evolution.
No, the remains of each kind had been deposited when the earth was flooded with water when the old earth was destroyed, All God did was resurrect them after their kind. And the seed was deposited in the ground that the plants came from at the same time.
quote:
Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
quote:
Jonah wasn't the only soul incarcerated in a fish was he.
Probably not, but so far as I know he was the only one vomited up on dry land.
quote:
And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
quote:
Being from a practicing jewish family he had the pleasure of reading Genesis from the original in the Torah
I am not Jewish but I have the same privilege of being able to read and study the Torah, and have done so since I started studying Biblical Hebrew in 1965.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3158 by AZPaul3, posted 11-27-2023 10:51 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3163 by dwise1, posted 11-29-2023 3:05 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3162 of 3810 (913684)
11-29-2023 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3160 by candle2
11-28-2023 8:15 AM


Re: candle2, So Just What are "Created Kinds"?
Hi candle2
quote:
The original creation could have been weeks, months, or
years before it was devastated by the war in the heavens.
The war between the fallen angels and those who remained
faithful to God.
quote:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
That says it was created in the beginning period.
I am not God nor am I an angel and they were the only ones there when it began to exist.
I will look forward to your insights.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3160 by candle2, posted 11-28-2023 8:15 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3175 by candle2, posted 12-01-2023 1:11 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3164 of 3810 (913699)
11-29-2023 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3163 by dwise1
11-29-2023 3:05 AM


Re: candle2, So Just What are "Created Kinds"?
Hi wise1,
dwise1 writes:
Are you fluent?
I can, read and write Biblical Hebrew but Biblical Hebrew was not written to be spoken as it had no vowels. The Greek language was the first language to have vowels as they borrowed the Phoenician alphabet and adapted it to their own language . I do not study the Masoretic Text as it messes up my study of the original language. When you change from a consonant study to vowel study it just messes things up.
dwise1 writes:
Thinking in a language means a lot more than the words being used.
Actually you have to think like the writer of the text and the definition he/she believed the words to mean to be able to understand what he/she is trying to convey to the reader.
You can't take modern definitions and apply them to a dead language and get the meaning the author is trying to convey.
Languages have changed a lot since Moses wrote the Torah. Just look at the change in English in our lifetime at least in my lifetime.
dwise1 writes:
IOW, so much of such "apologetics" seems to know nothing about how languages work.
And it is hard to explain to a person that has studied modern Hebrew that what he has learned does not work in Biblical Hebrew as it is 2800 years old and a dead language for 2400 years.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3163 by dwise1, posted 11-29-2023 3:05 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3168 of 3810 (913708)
11-30-2023 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 3154 by AZPaul3
11-27-2023 1:34 PM


Re nutjob
Hi Paul,
AZPaul3 writes:
But, this is to be expected. You are a religious nutjob.
He is a baby who is still in his infancy when it comes to the knowledge in the Word of God.
I am the one considered a religious nut job according to just about every one I know including you. All the YEC'S know I am a nutjob, because I don't believe their story.
You mentioned evidenced reality.
Can you show me where I can find the scientific evidence for the origin of life?
You have to have life existing before it can evolve.
If no one can then, how can anyone figure out the so-called chain of evolution.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3154 by AZPaul3, posted 11-27-2023 1:34 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3171 by AZPaul3, posted 11-30-2023 9:37 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 3172 by AZPaul3, posted 11-30-2023 10:31 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3169 of 3810 (913709)
11-30-2023 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3165 by candle2
11-30-2023 11:35 AM


Re ORIGIN OF LIFE
Hi Candle2
candle2 writes:
science and the origin of Life
There is no scientific evidence as to the origin of life, so, how could they debate the subject.
But life exists unless, we are a brain in a jar in some alien's Labatory.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3165 by candle2, posted 11-30-2023 11:35 AM candle2 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3170 of 3810 (913710)
11-30-2023 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3166 by dwise1
11-30-2023 3:22 PM


Hi wise1
dwise1 writes:
For that matter, candle2 never ever provides any links at all, while claiming that he does provide links. That is a flat-out, bald-faced LIE.
Maybe he does not know how to link to a video. Just a thought.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3166 by dwise1, posted 11-30-2023 3:22 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3173 by dwise1, posted 12-01-2023 1:26 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 3174 of 3810 (913716)
12-01-2023 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3172 by AZPaul3
11-30-2023 10:31 PM


Re: Re nutjob
Hi Paul,
AZPaul3 writes:
You spread religious poison.
Poison Noun a: a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism.
Verb a: to injure or kill with poison.
I tell people that if they don't trust Christ to give them eternal life they will spend eternity in hell with the devil and his angels. I teach them to live a good life and help their fellowman.
If I am wrong and there is no God or heaven how am I doing any harm to those who hear me.
You tell them there is no God and no heaven.
But if you are wrong and they listen to you and die and go to hell you are the one who has done them great harm.
AZPaul3 writes:
That is evil, Reverend.
You telling them there is no God is evil.
AZPaul3 writes:
You believe in majik and imaginary cosmic powers. More, you believe your church has a monopoly on what all humanity needs to do to avoid the results of your creed, your self-generated threat of eternal damnation. The problem is all your fellow nutjobs, priests of different creeds, demand that same monopoly over humanities actions. Your religions end up making millennia of war on humanity.

I don't believe in magic but you do.
You tell them there is no God.
And the universe began to exist when nothing existed out of an unknown source of energy that produced the universe.
And life just appeared in a chemical soup of come unknoqwn chemicals that came from an unknown source.
It takes as much or more faith to believe that story than my story.
I did not create Hell.
I did not start any war.
I don't care what you think or do as long and you don't try to make me conform to your lifestyle. That don't stop me from loving you enough to try to
share my Friend with you.
Since you are your own God just do anything you choose to do and I will be satisfied with it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3172 by AZPaul3, posted 11-30-2023 10:31 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3178 by DrJones*, posted 12-01-2023 7:39 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 3182 by candle2, posted 12-02-2023 8:55 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 3183 by candle2, posted 12-02-2023 9:34 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 3184 by candle2, posted 12-02-2023 10:09 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3177 of 3810 (913720)
12-01-2023 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3175 by candle2
12-01-2023 1:11 PM


Re: candle2, So Just What are "Created Kinds"?
Hi Candle2
candle2 writes:
Here is a 9 minute link to what Dr. Tour is asking.
The link does not work.
You did not even type the link in your message. If you think you did scroll down to the box at the bottom of your message that says Peek click on it and your message will open to what you typed.
candle2 writes:
In order to show that life came from complex chemicals,
Dr. Tour asks for the formulas to create polypeptides;
Polynucleotides; polysaccharides; specified information;
and, assembly of a living cell.
There has never been a formula that produced life and never will be. The scientific community has accepted the TOE as fact and moved on without one shred of evidence as to the origin of life.
Alexander Graham Cairns-Smith at the University of Glasgow in Scotland came up with the idea life could have started in clay. source
Since God formed man from the dust of the ground and then breathed the breath of life into that form and it became a living being he was pretty close to how life began.
moses writes:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Later all animals were formed from the ground.
moses writes:
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
So all life came from the ground even the trees and vegetation, Genesis 2:8, 9.
God Bless,
PS:If you will hit the Peek button to the right you can see how I made the source link.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3175 by candle2, posted 12-01-2023 1:11 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 3179 of 3810 (913722)
12-01-2023 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3178 by DrJones*
12-01-2023 7:39 PM


Re: Re nutjob
Hi doc,
DrJones* writes:
Odin
Sorry I forgot about your god.
Where can I find more about Odin than, Odin: The Supreme Norse God of Wisdom, War, and Magic Odin is the king of the Aesir, the principal race of Norse gods.
Source: Just a moment...

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3178 by DrJones*, posted 12-01-2023 7:39 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3180 by kjsimons, posted 12-01-2023 10:17 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 3181 by DrJones*, posted 12-02-2023 1:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 3186 of 3810 (913729)
12-02-2023 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3183 by candle2
12-02-2023 9:34 AM


Re: Re nutjob
Hi Candle2,
candle2 writes:
ICANT, When the earth was originally created, it was a
marvel. The angels all shouted for joy at its creation.
moses writes:
Genesis 1:1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In the Hebrew text the second word: Is ברא a transliteration bra, a verb, Qal SM3 perfect form which means to create, shape.
God is the subject of the verb that preforms the action of the verb, the direct objects of the verb is the heavens and the earth.
There are no tenses or vowels in Biblical Hebrew. A verb is either perfect (completed action) or imperfect (ongoing action)
The Hebrew word translated heaven is plural and should have been translated as such as it was in other scriptures. Example Genesis 2:1
Conclusion: Genesis 1:1 is a declarative statement of completed action performed by the subject God producing the heavens and earth in a completed form with nothing left to do for it to be inhabited by mankind.
If a person ignores the perfect verb form they can make it say what they want it to say. But the verb would have to be imperfect to have what is found at Genesis 1:2.
candle2 writes:
Isaiah states in 45:18 that God did not create it in vain
(Tohuw). Tohuw refers to "lie waste," or desolation (of
surface).
My Lexicon says Tohuw means: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness. Anyone of those fit the description of what exists at Genesis 1:2.
It is better to quote the exact reading of the Word to understand the verse.
Isaiah 45:18 writes:
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Jeremiah writes:
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
​Jeremiah is describing the condition found in Genesis 1:2 as everything was destroyed. Nothing left alive and especially a man or even a bird everything had been destroyed.
He was not talking about Noah's flood as I have been told as everything was not destroyed in the flood of Noah. Eight people were left alive and many animals. Also as soon as the water receded there was plants alive.
But Jeremiah described an earth where everything had been destroyed.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3183 by candle2, posted 12-02-2023 9:34 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3190 by candle2, posted 12-02-2023 12:48 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3188 of 3810 (913733)
12-02-2023 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3183 by candle2
12-02-2023 9:34 AM


Re: Re nutjob
Hi Candle2,
candle2 writes:
Between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 a war in the heavens
between Satan and his fallen angles and Michael and
the faithful angels had devastated much of the universe.
Where in the Bible do you find that story?
I believe Scoffield put forth that idea and a lot of old earther's I have talked with in the past hold that belief. No one has given me a scripture to support such a position. I do know that according to John in his writings of the Revelation that he mentions a war in heaven that has not taken place yet.
John writes:
Revelation 12:7, 8]7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Since, the devil was walking around in heaven in Jobs lifetime that war did not take place yet.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3183 by candle2, posted 12-02-2023 9:34 AM candle2 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3189 of 3810 (913734)
12-02-2023 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 3187 by Phat
12-02-2023 11:43 AM


Re: Links By Definition
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
I am not particularly impressed with him. He is a believer but his dogmatic stance on creationism is unappealing.
Where did you find anything about his stance on creationism?
I could not find a video or even anything on his website about creation.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3187 by Phat, posted 12-02-2023 11:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 133 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3191 of 3810 (913738)
12-02-2023 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3183 by candle2
12-02-2023 9:34 AM


Re: Re nutjob
Hi Candle2,,
candle2 writes:

The Word "was" in verse 2 is from hayah. Hayah, "to exist,"
"to become," or "come to pass."

Hayah can refer to both was and became, depending on
the context.

Verse 2 is best rendered: "And the earth became a
desolation, and an indistinguishable ruin..."
Hayah is translated was in Genesis 1:2 and in Genesis 3:1 and nowhere else in Genesis.
The meaning:
quote:
הָיָה hâyâh, haw-yaw; a primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):—beacon, × altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, × have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, × use.
Strongs Lexicon.
You will notice there is no was in that definition. That came from my personal copy of Strongs Lexicon #H1933.
Most places you find was in the Bible it was added by the translators.
quote:
Zech. 8:10 For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbour.
hayah is translated "there was no hire" it would have been better translated as "there existed no hire". IMO
Jdg 19:30 hayah translated {And it was so}, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds. Would have been better translated as 'For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbor. hayah would have been better translated as 'There existed...'. IMO
Jdg 20:3 hayah (Now the children of Benjamin heard that the children of Israel were gone up to Mizpeh.) Then said the children of Israel, Tell us, {how was} this wickedness? hayah would have been better translated as 'how did this wickedness exist.' IMO

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3183 by candle2, posted 12-02-2023 9:34 AM candle2 has not replied

  
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