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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: What is the unimpeachable evidence. You have people writing about him. But they did they make it up. You are entirely dependent on what others have, written. You never met him. It is just far more recent and after the printing press was invented. What is the scientific evidence that he existed, assuming there is no grave site?
I see Taq has responded, but I haven't read it yet. My response is to quote John McEnroe: "You cannot be serious." Like Jesus, Joseph Smith is believed by his followers to be a great prophet and worker of miracles, but unlike Jesus there is unimpeachable evidence that he was a real person who actually existed. Percy writes: We all come to our own conclusions. I have my Christian beliefs which is not necessarily the same as other Christians, most here have their atheistic beliefs and you have a vaguely defined spiritual belief that is so weakly defined that there is nothing to really argue against or defend. The usual response to this is that Joseph Smith (or any founder of any other religion) was nothing like Jesus, as if he were the template, as if true religions can only be founded by people born of virgins who had a final dinner with their apostles before being arrested and crucified.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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nwr writes:
Thanks. When I first read your post I agreed that it sounded interesting. I went straight to Amazon and ordered it and it si supposed to arrive Sep. 28. They didn't have it available in Canada so they have to get it up from the states first May I recommend a book.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: Yes the scientific findings as you describe them are not subjective conclusions. However, belief or rejection of string theory is a subjective conclusion as the scientific evidence is not conclusive. You eventually arrived at "subjective conclusions" after beginning with "We both have evidence" and "philosophical evidence" and trying to draw a false equivalence. Can we finally at last get a concession from you that scientific conclusions, (theories) that are arrived at through research and study, experiments, observations, replication, peer review and consensus are not in any way "subjective conclusions"? That they, to the best of human ability, correspond to actual material reality while your religious beliefs do not even come close? That to talk of both having evidence is absurd? Science and religion are two different forms of knowledge all together. Science answers hard facts. However, science still has to come up with answers, using what science is known to form a subjective opinion. Science has unearthed numerous natural processes. However as that is all that science has discovered, it is a subjective conclusion that there is nothing more. That's fine, but it is my subjective conclusion that there is more about our existence than natural processes, and one of the things that causes me to believe that is simply that natural processes exist, and we can learn about them.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Taq writes: I am sorry Taq but I just don't understand the point you are making here.
I was criticizing your belief that parsimony is a subjective conclusion. It isn't. It is an axiom of almost every practical and pragmatic epistemology that exists. Addressing the beliefs in the quote above, it would look like you arbitrarily apply parsimony based on your own subjective criteria. Taq writes: There is no required correlation between what people think and what is actually true. Of course.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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AZPaul3 writes: No, I have had a wonderful life, and if that is all there is then so be it. I have come to my own conclusion that this isn't all there is. It is what I believe to be true. I kinda resent you telling me what my motivations are. Why do you feel this? It is rejection of the squeamish concept of ... the void, isn't it? AZPaul3 writes: Without the physical body to encase it where does that living spirit that is you go on death? It is my belief that it will be re-embodied. That is all faith, based on the NT writings, and the resurrection of Jesus, which is not the point of this thread and off topic.
Paul3 writes: Where does that energy go? To the same place that the energy that is in the fig tree outside my window goes. AZPaul3 writes: That is energy, actual physical photons, and it will obey the commands of the universe. The commands of the universe. Doesn't a command require an intelligence?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: Call it what you like, but we now have conscious sentient life, and in my personal opinion, it is more likely to have come from an intelligent source than a non-intelligent source. I don't believe you mean this for a second. Within some small number of messages you'll again be back to your claims of evidence. For example, you still believe that the mere existence of life is evidence of a "cosmic intelligence" or "external intelligence" or whatever term you move on to in the future. But it isn't evidence. It's your personal opinion.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Ya - not good. It was about control, and the church had too much political power and were more than a tad reluctant to give it up.
There have always been a few intellectuals arguing the toss about biblical issues - so long as they lived in jurisdictions and in times that didn't get you burnt alive for doing it. But the people were illiterate and the bible was not trusted in the hands of the laity. In England only latin bibles existed and those that tried to translate it for the people were burnt. The people got their knowledge of the bible from the pulpit and what they got was fire and damnation. Tangle writes: Sometimes it's easier just to treat it like it is a literal account, knowing it's not meant to be literal. From a Christian perspective I see the message being that even if there is only one good man left, God doesn't give up on us. The other message from that account is that God cares about the animals. Stuff like Noah's Ark and the Flood were being preached in ordinary churches and in bible classes back in the 60s when I was being forced fed the stuff. As always the church has stuff to answer for, but it does a lot of good as well.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: The wording has changed somewhat as there is a growing knowledge of the early Greek literature and Greek language and idioms. However, I would say that with the increasing knowledge of the language, as well as with a far better understanding of the time and culture that the various books of the Bible were written in, our understanding of the Bible continues to evolve. The book hasn’t changed, nor has its meaning. It’s God’s word, how could it? Tangle writes: I agree that the Sermon on the Mount is central to the Christian faith. What’s changed is US. Or at least some of us. You try to put the words into your context as a 21st century, liberal Westerner. To do that you really mustn’t read further than the sermon on the mount otherwise you’re in a lot of trouble. IMHO the NT has to be understood in many cases by reading the OT. The OT is quoted in so many cases in the NT. I then think that in order to understand the OT one has to look through the lens of what Jesus taught to understand it. For example you can't square the genocide or public stoning in the OT with Jesus' message of loving your enemy. I do agree that the Sermon on the Mount covers the whole social Gospel message.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
AZPaul3 writes:
Ya, it was meant to illicit a smile. Well personification being what it is then no, not necessarily. But you knew that. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I agree that there is no way to tell. But why do you think that matters? What difference does it make? I guess it matters as if there is an outside influence it then raises the question of what should that mean for our lives, if anything.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: That is actually changing. It completely ignore the works of all the early church fathers. It is based on the internal evidence only. I have gone through the arguments for what is in the wiki article and in each case it could be argued for or against the later dating of the Gospels. So much for eyewitnesses. Yes, many of the universities are now reviewing that position and looking at the time in which the Gospels were written. I have read quite a bit on the subject including all of Bauckham's tome. I read a book by David Alan Black called ]Why 4 Gospels where he argued for Matthean priority and a much earlier writing. However, neither of us will convince the other and it is entirely off topic anyway.
Percy writes: Well ya, bar Giora led a revolt that had some early success but ultimately wound up with the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus' idea of revolution didn't involve violence. It wouldn't be seen as noteworthy at the time.
History records a great deal about Simon bar Giora, but of Jesus, nothing. Percy writes: Same answer.
History records a great deal about Simon bar Kokhba, but of Jesus, nothing. Percy writes: Paul, an itinerant preacher who founded churches in the Jewish diaspora, created the religion that eventually became Christianity. There is no way of knowing whether he based Jesus upon a real person, a composite of real persons, or made him up out of whole cloth, but that the gospels are works of fiction, just like the Bhagavad Gita, the Quran and the Book of Mormon, there can be no doubt. If you say so. There are numerous very bright, very well educated people in this world who would disagree, but you claim there is no doubt.
Percy writes: We simply disagree, and I can present nothing that you won't dispute. The writings that did survive until today are the testimonies of the early Christian churches of the Jewish diaspora which had never had any contact with Jesus and had no reliable source of information about him.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: What is wrong with you? Everyone understands having limited time and not being able to reply to everything. But you can't pretend the arguments you didn't respond to never happened, and that's what you're doing when you make an argument yet again as if there had never been any rebuttals. How do you not see how dishonest this is? "Oh, I'm short of time, therefore any mistreatments of people I'm debating with are okay." Stop making excuses for yourself and blaming your difficulties on others. You're bringing this on yourself. There's no timetable here, no schedule. Take your time and do right by people. It would be the Christian thing to do. Frankly, I don't see that I am having difficulties except I am having to discuss this with multiple individuals and it takes time which I don't always have. How about being just a tad reasonable. If you don't think that I have a place on your forum , then tell me and I'll disappear. Not every post requires a response. The only evidence that you and others allow is scientific evidence. I have agreed there is no scientific evidence but we can draw subjective conclusions from what we observe about the world and our existence. None of you accept that. I get it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: The point IMHO to that we have hearts that love sacrificially which is not dependent on any particular spiritual belief. However, I contend from my own experience that spiritual belief can help to move hearts in that direction. IMHO Christianity provides me with faith that this world does give us meaning and purpose in that life matters, and good stewardship of the world matters, well beyond the idea of being in good with God when we die. If we are only looking to make things netter for ourselves in this life or the next then we have missed the point. Can you say something that is an actual response to what I said about the material world having a real impact while the spiritual world can be completely ignored without consequence?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: Firstly there is no physical evidence that I know of. However, as an observation, we all have things that we consider right or wrong and if God exists,and as our choice of right and wrong seems to matter in the overall scheme of things, The I suggest that indicates that He does care.
Let's grant that God exists.Why not consider that we aren't a part of God's plan at all? Maybe God doesn't even know we're here? Perhaps we're so insignificant, and such a tiny by-product that we seem no more than a speck of dust landing in the corner of an attic no one ever enters? After all, everything we actually know of the universe implies it's been created to make stars. Not people. Other than humanity's desire to have questions answered... can you name a single thing that we know about reality (as well as we can know anything... with evidence...) that reasonably indicates that God "bothered" to bring us into existence? Stile writes: All can I really say that if God bothered to bring us into existence, (even if all that He did was to introduce consciousness into the world), then it makes sense that He wouldn't do it without some purpose in mind.
"IF" God actually did bother to bring us into existence, purposefully, then yes. This is certainly an interesting question. At least on a curiosity level if nothing else.But going from "God exists" to "God intended to create humans with a purpose" seems a really big jump - given what we've been able to learn about the universe. Stile writes: I am very concerned with truth, realizing full well that it is a belief, and not absolute knowledge.
Are you sure you're "concerned with truth?"You seem more concerned with protecting your beliefs and letting yourself feel like your beliefs are true rather than searching for truth itself. Stile writes: Wouldn't being concerned with truth include:-looking at the universe the way it is -understanding how vast the universe is and how small/insignificant humans are within it -understanding how no part of the universe shows us any intervention from any "God" in any way -if a God exists and kicked off the universe, and it ended up this way... was His aim off and He "got lucky" that a tiny, immeasurably small portion of His universe was able to support humans as He desired? -or is it more likely that if a God exists and kicked off this universe... that His aim was spot-on and lots and lots and lots of stars exist - creating beauty for Him beyond anything a human is capable of... and humanity is just something that needs to be endured within a tiny, immeasurably small portion of the canvas God painted? One of those is closer to being "concerned with truth" (as it is understood as best we can today, anyway.) The other is closer to being "concerned with protecting personal beliefs/feelings" (regardless of our best attempts to ascertain the truth of this universe.) The point is... if you actually are concerned with truth... why not be honest about saying "Yeah, well, it certainly appears that God isn't involved in this world... and all evidence seems to point that way... I just hope it's wrong because I would personally prefer a universe where I'm a direct, intended product of a creator God." IMHO the key involves consciousness. Writers on this forum, and pretty much stated as fact, say the consciousness simply evolved as part of the evolutionary process. What is the physical evidence of that. Consciousness exists. Here is something from Scientific American. quote:I am not knowledgeable enough to argue either for or against that but it does give a different POV to what gets expressed here. Also it appears to me that as we can see in the "double split experiment" that observation and/or measurement, (that comes from consciousness), affect the material and not the other way around.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: Well I can't have done any critical analysis because I don't agree with you. What critical analysis have you done. I read the over 600 pages of Richard Backhams's book "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses. Of course you simply dismiss him because he doesn't agree with. Here is a brief bio on the man.
But you, by your own admission, also have no evidence yet have reached plenty of conclusions. How can that be? The answer is that though you keep saying you have no evidence, you don't really believe it. You think the Bible and the Patristic Fathers and Papias and Polycarp and Tacitus are so on are all evidence. It seems that if someone writes something supportive of your viewpoints you blindly accept it without subjecting it to critical analysis.quote: I have also read others on the subject. The objections that were raised were from roughly a couple of centuries ago in an effort to discredit the Gospels. It was called "form criticism". Here is a wiki article on it. Form CriticismHere is one quote from that site. quote: The form critics completely disregarded the external evidence and relied on simply looking at the quality of the Greek and some other observations from the content. I went over all of the rationale and could not find anything that supported Rudolf Bultman's view that couldn't also be used to argue for the contrary position.However, you know more about it than those who have spent their whole adult life studying it. I'd venture to say that I have done far more in the way of critical analysis than you have. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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