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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Phat
Member Posts: 18292 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 511 of 3694 (897910)
09-15-2022 3:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 507 by ringo
09-15-2022 11:41 AM
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Re: History For Atheists
ringo writes: I have asked you many, many, many times to show us ONE apologist who is not a liar. Get to it. We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see.
Bio Dr.Kreeft, now 85, is well loved and well respected by many people. You are so far the only guy I know who refers to him as "some goober". It's ok, though....that's how you are.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 507 by ringo, posted 09-15-2022 11:41 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 529 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 7:41 AM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 539 by ringo, posted 09-16-2022 11:49 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9503 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.6
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Message 512 of 3694 (897913)
09-15-2022 4:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 509 by GDR
09-15-2022 2:23 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: I would agree that there is nothing new but our understandings continually evolve, which I is a positive thing even though in many cases IMHO, it evolved negatively. The book hasn’t changed, nor has its meaning. It’s God’s word, how could it? What’s changed is US. Or at least some of us. You try to put the words into your context as a 21st century, liberal Westerner. To do that you really mustn’t read further than the sermon on the mount otherwise you’re in a lot of trouble.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 509 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 2:23 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 549 by GDR, posted 09-16-2022 8:27 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 513 of 3694 (897914)
09-15-2022 4:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 481 by Stile
09-13-2022 1:30 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Stile writes: I still don't even get the point of believing God "kicked off the process" of evolution or not. Who cares? The process exists - it appears to be fully natural. It doesn't seem to have any reason to suggest that any part of it is required to be supernatural. So why care if God kicked it off or not? Well, if God exists then we might want to ask the question of why he bothered to bring us into existence. It seems reasonable and even logical that there would be a purpose to it, and if that is the case you would think we might be interested in that purpose, and what it should mean to our life.
Stile writes: Are humans not strong enough to consider a God that exists that doesn't care about humans? I don't see it a case being strong enough at all, unless it's a pride thing. I'm concerned with truth, knowing that it is belief and faith.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 481 by Stile, posted 09-13-2022 1:30 PM | | Stile has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 514 of 3694 (897915)
09-15-2022 4:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 482 by Taq
09-13-2022 1:39 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Taq writes: The real argument is over the claims of what Jesus did, not if he existed. The same for Joseph Smith. Also the actually message has to be evaluated.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 482 by Taq, posted 09-13-2022 1:39 PM | | Taq has not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 515 of 3694 (897916)
09-15-2022 5:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 485 by Percy
09-13-2022 5:09 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: I responded to this claim once already and you didn't respond. Now you're just repeating this claim yet again as if no one had ever responded to it. This is what you do, over and over. It's why people get frustrated at you and why you leave because you don't like the treatment that you yourself are instigating.
I am trying to use what time I have to work my way through all of these posts. Some things that are written I just accept and try and prioritize what to reply to.
Percy writes: The theoretical side of science does go beyond the empirical. For example, it was theorized that the Higgs Boson existed before empirical evidence for its existence was found. Once this evidence was produced it meant that the Higgs Boson was no longer theoretical but empirical. So what, it could have also proven that it didn't exist. Up to then it was belief, although I agree there was evidence for it, but not conclusive.
Percy writes: That religion is subjective is why there are so many religions in the world. That science is empirical is why there's only one Boyle's Law, one Theory of Relativity, one germ theory of disease. Religions are of a totally different nature than is science. I do think that the order of science does suggest a designer but that of course is simply my belief, that I know you don't agree with.
Percy writes: Ockham's razor. Why are you postulating the existence of something for which there is no evidence? You need to demonstrate what you're postulating experimentally. For example, mix hydrogen and oxygen and provide a spark. Do this once in the presence of an "external intelligence" and again in the absence of an "external intelligence." Observe whether there are any differences in what happens. Any differences would be evidence that the presence of an "external intelligence" can have an influence on natural processes. I recently answered a post by Stile where he talked about rolling a dice. This is not the point he was making, but if I roll a dice and it comes up 3, how would I know whether or not God interfered and caused it to come up as a 3. Now, I'm not saying that I think God works that way, but I can't know one way or the another. I'm in the car and suddenly I decide to go a different route to the store. Did God influence that decision or not. I, or you, have no way of knowing. There is no evidence. I decide to donate to the food bank. Maybe God influenced that decision and maybe not. We can't know as again, there is no evidence. It is belief. Does an external intelligence exist or not. It is belief as there is no scientific evidence that will give you an absolute answer.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 485 by Percy, posted 09-13-2022 5:09 PM | | Percy has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 516 of 3694 (897917)
09-15-2022 5:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 486 by Percy
09-13-2022 7:26 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: You seem to think your inability to make the case yourself is due to a weakness of expression on your part, but that's not true. It's that there's no case to be made. It doesn't matter whether it's you or <fill in the blank, e.g., Chris Barrigar, C. S. Lewis, etc.>, nothing can change that. I don't have the credibility or the credentials that these guys have. I don't have their ability to express ideas. This has been their life's work. While they were at university and learning and teaching others I was raising kids and gaining the skills to make a living and then applying them.
Percy writes: And yet if you ignore the material world it will quickly convince you how real it is, even killing you if you insist on taking it to that point. But we can ignore all aspects of everyone's non-material or spiritual beliefs and suffer no consequences whatsoever. I do believe that our lives in the present will have impact on the life to come. Edited by Admin, : Fix quote that left out portion with special characters.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 486 by Percy, posted 09-13-2022 7:26 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 532 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 8:44 AM | | GDR has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 517 of 3694 (897918)
09-15-2022 6:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 487 by Percy
09-13-2022 7:43 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: I see Taq has responded, but I haven't read it yet. My response is to quote John McEnroe: "You cannot be serious." Like Jesus, Joseph Smith is believed by his followers to be a great prophet and worker of miracles, but unlike Jesus there is unimpeachable evidence that he was a real person who actually existed. What is the unimpeachable evidence. You have people writing about him. But they did they make it up. You are entirely dependent on what others have, written. You never met him. It is just far more recent and after the printing press was invented. What is the scientific evidence that he existed, assuming there is no grave site?
Percy writes: The usual response to this is that Joseph Smith (or any founder of any other religion) was nothing like Jesus, as if he were the template, as if true religions can only be founded by people born of virgins who had a final dinner with their apostles before being arrested and crucified. We all come to our own conclusions. I have my Christian beliefs which is not necessarily the same as other Christians, most here have their atheistic beliefs and you have a vaguely defined spiritual belief that is so weakly defined that there is nothing to really argue against or defend.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 487 by Percy, posted 09-13-2022 7:43 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 534 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 9:03 AM | | GDR has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 518 of 3694 (897919)
09-15-2022 6:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 489 by nwr
09-13-2022 10:00 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
nwr writes: May I recommend a book.
Thanks. When I first read your post I agreed that it sounded interesting. I went straight to Amazon and ordered it and it si supposed to arrive Sep. 28. They didn't have it available in Canada so they have to get it up from the states first
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 489 by nwr, posted 09-13-2022 10:00 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 535 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 9:29 AM | | GDR has not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 519 of 3694 (897920)
09-15-2022 6:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 490 by Percy
09-14-2022 10:50 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: You eventually arrived at "subjective conclusions" after beginning with "We both have evidence" and "philosophical evidence" and trying to draw a false equivalence. Can we finally at last get a concession from you that scientific conclusions, (theories) that are arrived at through research and study, experiments, observations, replication, peer review and consensus are not in any way "subjective conclusions"? That they, to the best of human ability, correspond to actual material reality while your religious beliefs do not even come close? That to talk of both having evidence is absurd? Yes the scientific findings as you describe them are not subjective conclusions. However, belief or rejection of string theory is a subjective conclusion as the scientific evidence is not conclusive. Science and religion are two different forms of knowledge all together. Science answers hard facts. However, science still has to come up with answers, using what science is known to form a subjective opinion. Science has unearthed numerous natural processes. However as that is all that science has discovered, it is a subjective conclusion that there is nothing more. That's fine, but it is my subjective conclusion that there is more about our existence than natural processes, and one of the things that causes me to believe that is simply that natural processes exist, and we can learn about them.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 490 by Percy, posted 09-14-2022 10:50 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 537 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 10:14 AM | | GDR has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 520 of 3694 (897921)
09-15-2022 6:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 502 by Taq
09-14-2022 4:09 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Taq writes: I was criticizing your belief that parsimony is a subjective conclusion. It isn't. It is an axiom of almost every practical and pragmatic epistemology that exists. Addressing the beliefs in the quote above, it would look like you arbitrarily apply parsimony based on your own subjective criteria. I am sorry Taq but I just don't understand the point you are making here.
Taq writes: There is no required correlation between what people think and what is actually true. Of course.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 502 by Taq, posted 09-14-2022 4:09 PM | | Taq has not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 521 of 3694 (897922)
09-15-2022 6:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 505 by AZPaul3
09-15-2022 12:12 AM
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Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes: Why do you feel this? It is rejection of the squeamish concept of ... the void, isn't it? No, I have had a wonderful life, and if that is all there is then so be it. I have come to my own conclusion that this isn't all there is. It is what I believe to be true. I kinda resent you telling me what my motivations are.
AZPaul3 writes: Without the physical body to encase it where does that living spirit that is you go on death? It is my belief that it will be re-embodied. That is all faith, based on the NT writings, and the resurrection of Jesus, which is not the point of this thread and off topic.
Paul3 writes: Where does that energy go? To the same place that the energy that is in the fig tree outside my window goes.
AZPaul3 writes: That is energy, actual physical photons, and it will obey the commands of the universe. The commands of the universe. Doesn't a command require an intelligence?
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 505 by AZPaul3, posted 09-15-2022 12:12 AM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9130 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 522 of 3694 (897923)
09-15-2022 6:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 510 by GDR
09-15-2022 3:31 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Richard Bauckham's book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses details, after considerable research, how all the NT was written either by eye witnesses or by writers with a first person connected to the eye witnesses.
His claims go against all scholarly consensus. Just because one dude writes a book does not make it true.
Papias who lived from 60 to 130 AD insisted on writing only from eyewitness or from those with direct contact to the eye witnesses.
Polycarp born 69 AD wrote extensively and had contact with the disciples.
Bullshit you have no evidence of this. All there is is tradition and later writings
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 510 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 3:31 PM | | GDR has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 523 by Phat, posted 09-15-2022 9:15 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18292 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 523 of 3694 (897925)
09-15-2022 9:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 522 by Theodoric
09-15-2022 6:46 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Theodoric writes: His claims go against all scholarly consensus. ALL? Are you claiming that there is a consensus that the Bible was made up and that Jesus never existed? Or at best was just another face in the crowd? I feel that you are being lied to. Either that or you actually want to entertain the bias. Granted I have no real set of data nor evidence that would meet your satisfaction. Somehow, I strongly feel that many people are being deceived these days. You laugh at the idea of Gold being money, yet I have read (from several sources) that India and China are buying up a lot of gold and silver at bargain basement prices. I became convinced that the US Dollar is on a long and gradual decline. Perhaps you think I need mental help, I don't really know. So what does Gold have to do with Christian apologetics? When a nation is suffering, the real character of the people comes out. Believe it or not, I don't want the world to end. I don't want wars and rumors of wars. I am even getting tired of religion! But I do want Jesus. I want a Deity that is wiser than humanity. Because I doubt we will make it.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 522 by Theodoric, posted 09-15-2022 6:46 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 524 by Theodoric, posted 09-15-2022 9:32 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9130 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 524 of 3694 (897926)
09-15-2022 9:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 523 by Phat
09-15-2022 9:15 PM
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Phat and another strawman
That isn't what I said, is it? Another strawman. It is against the scholarly consensus that the synoptic gospels were based on eyewitness testimony and that the Gospel of John was written by an eyewitness. Please keep your wackaloon economic theories to the appropriate threads. Everything else you spout is also off-topic and just word salad
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 523 by Phat, posted 09-15-2022 9:15 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8525 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.2
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Message 525 of 3694 (897927)
09-15-2022 9:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 521 by GDR
09-15-2022 6:39 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Doesn't a command require an intelligence? Well personification being what it is then no, not necessarily. But you knew that.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 521 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 6:39 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 550 by GDR, posted 09-16-2022 8:29 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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