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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 556 of 815 (898066)
09-18-2022 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by GDR
09-17-2022 6:07 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
We simply disagree ...
You can’t disagree. Percy did not voice an opinion. He stated a known fact.
If you dispute the fact then you must show the fact wrong. You cannot just assert that it is wrong or just disagree with what it shows.
Percy’s post is fact. "The writings that did survive until today are the testimonies of the early Christian churches of the Jewish diaspora which had never had any contact with Jesus and had no reliable source of information about him."
You have to deal with facts. You cannot just disagree and ignore them.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by GDR, posted 09-17-2022 6:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by GDR, posted 09-20-2022 2:46 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 557 of 815 (898096)
09-18-2022 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 555 by GDR
09-17-2022 6:07 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
Wikipedia on Richard Bauckham:
This is against the scholarly consensus that the four gospels were written later and not via interviews with direct eyewitnesses, but were rather the result of a longer chain of transmission of stories of Jesus filtered through early Christian communities over time.
So much for eyewitnesses.
That is actually changing...<etc. and so forth for a couple paragraphs...>
No, the consensus isn't changing. It can only change if new evidence of eyewitnesses comes to light. Without that you've just got endless discussion of different viewpoints, which has been the situation for centuries.
However, neither of us will convince the other and it is entirely off topic anyway.
But the fact remains that you have no evidence. You can't convince me of anything without evidence. And I've already convinced you that you have no evidence. You've conceded the point a number of times.
Percy writes:
History records a great deal about Simon bar Giora, but of Jesus, nothing.
Well ya, bar Giora led a revolt that had some early success but ultimately wound up with the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus' idea of revolution didn't involve violence. It wouldn't be seen as noteworthy at the time.
So miracles and resurrections aren't noteworthy in 30 AD, but by 100 AD they are? You're actually describing the exact process of mythology where the details grow over time. Your own critical thinking should come into play and recognize that Papias's and Polycarp's claims of interviewing eyewitnessesn more than 70 years after the events is unlikely in the extreme. Why doesn't it?
Percy writes:
Paul, an itinerant preacher who founded churches in the Jewish diaspora, created the religion that eventually became Christianity. There is no way of knowing whether he based Jesus upon a real person, a composite of real persons, or made him up out of whole cloth, but that the gospels are works of fiction, just like the Bhagavad Gita, the Quran and the Book of Mormon, there can be no doubt.

If you say so. There are numerous very bright, very well educated people in this world who would disagree, but you claim there is no doubt.
But you agree with me that all these books are works of fiction, except for one. You're just like all atheists, except that you disagree with them about one religion.
Percy writes:
The writings that did survive until today are the testimonies of the early Christian churches of the Jewish diaspora which had never had any contact with Jesus and had no reliable source of information about him.
We simply disagree, and I can present nothing that you won't dispute.
Are you sure we disagree? I'm sure we both believe the gospels were produced by the early Christian churches that Paul founded in the Jewish diaspora. And that they couldn't have had any contact with Jesus since Paul didn't start founding churches until after Jesus's death. And that their only source of information was secondhand.
It is not a case that I'm disputing everything you claim. I'm just pointing out that you're making very exaggerated claims about having evidence.
You can't seem to decide whether you have evidence or not. You concede you have no evidence until someone challenges a cherished belief, such as that Jesus existed, and then suddenly you're arguing again that you do too have evidence. You don't. If there were real evidence then most people would accept Christianity and the other religions would be poor shadows of their current selves.
Why is it so important to you that your faith have evidence? If it had evidence would it still be faith?
Your search for evidence reminds me of a 1972 book by Irving Wallace called The Word about the discovery of the Gospel of James, brother of Jesus. Researchers authenticate it and the entire world converts to Christianity.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by GDR, posted 09-17-2022 6:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by Phat, posted 09-18-2022 6:11 PM Percy has replied
 Message 580 by GDR, posted 09-21-2022 4:18 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 558 of 815 (898097)
09-18-2022 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by Percy
09-18-2022 5:28 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy addressing GDR writes:
Why is it so important to you that your faith has evidence? If it had evidence would it still be faith?
That one sentence jumped out and grabbed me! I was waiting for you to say something intelligent that I could relate to. And you did!
Percy addressing GDR writes:
Your search for evidence reminds me of a 1972 book by Irving Wallace called The Word about the discovery of the Gospel of James, brother of Jesus. Researchers authenticate it and the entire world converts to Christianity.
Both evidence-based skeptics and believers have holdouts. If they actually found objective evidence that Jesus existed, there would still be many people refusing to accept Him. Even if they validated that he lived after the crucifixion.

Edited by Phat, .


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Percy, posted 09-18-2022 5:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by Percy, posted 09-19-2022 9:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 560 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 1:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 559 of 815 (898109)
09-19-2022 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 558 by Phat
09-18-2022 6:11 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
If they actually found objective evidence that Jesus existed, there would still be many people refusing to accept Him. Even if they validated that he lived after the crucifixion.
If conclusive evidence were uncovered that Jesus not only existed but that the events recorded in the gospels really happened, including the resurrection, then the only people denying it would be flat-earther/heliocentrism-denier types.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Phat, posted 09-18-2022 6:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 560 of 815 (898131)
09-19-2022 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 558 by Phat
09-18-2022 6:11 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
If they actually found objective evidence that Jesus existed, there would still be many people refusing to accept Him.
I bet you can't find any on this forum. Idiots like candle2 and Dredge might agree with you.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Phat, posted 09-18-2022 6:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 561 of 815 (898132)
09-19-2022 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Percy
09-16-2022 8:34 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
What is wrong with you? Everyone understands having limited time and not being able to reply to everything. But you can't pretend the arguments you didn't respond to never happened, and that's what you're doing when you make an argument yet again as if there had never been any rebuttals.

How do you not see how dishonest this is? "Oh, I'm short of time, therefore any mistreatments of people I'm debating with are okay."

Stop making excuses for yourself and blaming your difficulties on others. You're bringing this on yourself. There's no timetable here, no schedule. Take your time and do right by people. It would be the Christian thing to do.
Frankly, I don't see that I am having difficulties except I am having to discuss this with multiple individuals and it takes time which I don't always have. How about being just a tad reasonable. If you don't think that I have a place on your forum , then tell me and I'll disappear. Not every post requires a response.
The only evidence that you and others allow is scientific evidence. I have agreed there is no scientific evidence but we can draw subjective conclusions from what we observe about the world and our existence. None of you accept that. I get it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 8:34 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by Percy, posted 09-22-2022 2:44 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 562 of 815 (898135)
09-19-2022 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by Percy
09-16-2022 8:44 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
Can you say something that is an actual response to what I said about the material world having a real impact while the spiritual world can be completely ignored without consequence?
The point IMHO to that we have hearts that love sacrificially which is not dependent on any particular spiritual belief. However, I contend from my own experience that spiritual belief can help to move hearts in that direction. IMHO Christianity provides me with faith that this world does give us meaning and purpose in that life matters, and good stewardship of the world matters, well beyond the idea of being in good with God when we die. If we are only looking to make things netter for ourselves in this life or the next then we have missed the point.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 8:44 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 3:01 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 600 by Percy, posted 09-22-2022 2:51 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 563 of 815 (898142)
09-19-2022 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by Stile
09-16-2022 8:45 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Stile writes:
Let's grant that God exists.
Why not consider that we aren't a part of God's plan at all?
Maybe God doesn't even know we're here? Perhaps we're so insignificant, and such a tiny by-product that we seem no more than a speck of dust landing in the corner of an attic no one ever enters?
After all, everything we actually know of the universe implies it's been created to make stars. Not people.

Other than humanity's desire to have questions answered... can you name a single thing that we know about reality (as well as we can know anything... with evidence...) that reasonably indicates that God "bothered" to bring us into existence?
Firstly there is no physical evidence that I know of. However, as an observation, we all have things that we consider right or wrong and if God exists,and as our choice of right and wrong seems to matter in the overall scheme of things, The I suggest that indicates that He does care.
Stile writes:
"IF" God actually did bother to bring us into existence, purposefully, then yes. This is certainly an interesting question. At least on a curiosity level if nothing else.
But going from "God exists" to "God intended to create humans with a purpose" seems a really big jump - given what we've been able to learn about the universe.
All can I really say that if God bothered to bring us into existence, (even if all that He did was to introduce consciousness into the world), then it makes sense that He wouldn't do it without some purpose in mind.
Stile writes:
Are you sure you're "concerned with truth?"
You seem more concerned with protecting your beliefs and letting yourself feel like your beliefs are true rather than searching for truth itself.
I am very concerned with truth, realizing full well that it is a belief, and not absolute knowledge.
Stile writes:
Wouldn't being concerned with truth include:
-looking at the universe the way it is
-understanding how vast the universe is and how small/insignificant humans are within it
-understanding how no part of the universe shows us any intervention from any "God" in any way
-if a God exists and kicked off the universe, and it ended up this way... was His aim off and He "got lucky" that a tiny, immeasurably small portion of His universe was able to support humans as He desired?
-or is it more likely that if a God exists and kicked off this universe... that His aim was spot-on and lots and lots and lots of stars exist - creating beauty for Him beyond anything a human is capable of... and humanity is just something that needs to be endured within a tiny, immeasurably small portion of the canvas God painted?

One of those is closer to being "concerned with truth" (as it is understood as best we can today, anyway.)
The other is closer to being "concerned with protecting personal beliefs/feelings" (regardless of our best attempts to ascertain the truth of this universe.)

The point is... if you actually are concerned with truth... why not be honest about saying "Yeah, well, it certainly appears that God isn't involved in this world... and all evidence seems to point that way... I just hope it's wrong because I would personally prefer a universe where I'm a direct, intended product of a creator God."
IMHO the key involves consciousness. Writers on this forum, and pretty much stated as fact, say the consciousness simply evolved as part of the evolutionary process. What is the physical evidence of that. Consciousness exists. Here is something from Scientific American.
quote:
Does Consciousness Pervade the Universe?
Philosopher Philip Goff answers questions about “panpsychism”
• By Gareth Cook on January 14, 2020
One of science’s most challenging problems is a question that can be stated easily: Where does consciousness come from? In his most recent book, Galileo’s Error: Foundations for a New Science of Consciousness, philosopher Philip Goff considers a radical perspective: What if consciousness is not something special that the brain does but instead is a quality inherent to all matter? It is a theory known as panpsychism. He answered questions from former longtime Mind Matters editor Gareth Cook.
Can you explain, in simple terms, what you mean by panpsychism?
In our standard view of things, consciousness exists only in the brains of highly evolved organisms, and hence it exists only in a tiny part of the universe and only in very recent history. According to panpsychism, consciousness pervades the universe and is a fundamental feature of it. This doesn’t mean that literally everything is conscious. The basic commitment is that the fundamental constituents of reality—perhaps electrons and quarks—have incredibly simple forms of experience, and the very complex experience of the human or animal brain is somehow derived from the experience of the brain’s most basic parts.
I should clarify that by “consciousness,” I don’t mean self-awareness or the capacity to reflect on one’s own existence. I simply mean “experience”: pleasure, pain, visual or auditory experience.
Human beings have a very rich and complex experience; horses less so, mice less so again. As we move to simpler forms of life, we find simpler forms of experience. Perhaps at some point the light switches off, and consciousness disappears. But it’s at least coherent to suppose that this continuum of consciousness carries on into inorganic matter, with fundamental particles having unimaginably simple forms of experience.
What does panpsychism seek to bring to physics?
Philosophers of science have realized that physical science, for all its richness, is confined to telling us about the behavior of matter, what it does. Physics tells us, for example, that matter has mass and charge. These properties are completely defined in terms of behavior—things like attraction, repulsion, resistance to acceleration. Physics tells us absolutely nothing about what philosophers like to call the intrinsic nature of matter: what matter is in and of itself.
Consciousness, for the panpsychist, is the intrinsic nature of matter. There’s nothing supernatural or spiritual, but matter can be described from two perspectives. Physical science describes matter from the outside in terms of its behavior. But matter from the “inside”—that is, in terms of its intrinsic nature—is constituted of forms of consciousness.
Do you foresee a scenario in which panpsychism can be tested?
You can’t look inside an electron to see whether or not it is conscious, just as you can’t look inside someone’s head and see their feelings and experiences. We know that consciousness exists only because we are conscious.
Neuroscientists correlate certain kinds of brain activity with certain kinds of experience. We now know which kinds of brain activity are associated with feelings of hunger, pleasure, pain, and so on. This is really important information, but what we ultimately want from a science of consciousness is an explanation of those correlations. Why is a particular feeling correlated with a particular pattern of brain activity? As soon as you start to answer this question, you move beyond what can be, strictly speaking, tested, simply because consciousness is unobservable. We have to turn to philosophy.
Science gives us correlations between brain activity and experience. We then have to find the philosophical theory that best explains those correlations. In my view, the only theory that holds up to scrutiny is panpsychism.
I am not knowledgeable enough to argue either for or against that but it does give a different POV to what gets expressed here.
Also it appears to me that as we can see in the "double split experiment" that observation and/or measurement, (that comes from consciousness), affect the material and not the other way around.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by Stile, posted 09-16-2022 8:45 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 3:16 PM GDR has replied
 Message 572 by kjsimons, posted 09-19-2022 7:57 PM GDR has replied
 Message 592 by Stile, posted 09-22-2022 11:35 AM GDR has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 564 of 815 (898143)
09-19-2022 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 562 by GDR
09-19-2022 2:02 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
IMHO Christianity provides me with faith that this world does give us meaning and purpose in that life matters, and good stewardship of the world matters, well beyond the idea of being in good with God when we die. If we are only looking to make things better for ourselves in this life or the next then we have missed the point.
If someone is going to be a religious nutjob then I guess defining a ‘nice’ religion is better than most alternatives. If your GDR Cult of Christian Love gets to Phoenix I’ll come visit. I won’t laugh at the love parts. The rest, however …

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 2:02 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 565 of 815 (898145)
09-19-2022 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by GDR
09-19-2022 2:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Also it appears to me that as we can see in the "double split experiment" that observation and/or measurement, (that comes from consciousness), affect the material and not the other way around.
This is way way old PopSci misunderstanding. Change your sources. See Sean Carroll. Consciousness has nothing to do with measurement.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 2:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by GDR, posted 09-21-2022 8:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 566 of 815 (898148)
09-19-2022 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by Percy
09-16-2022 9:03 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
But you, by your own admission, also have no evidence yet have reached plenty of conclusions. How can that be? The answer is that though you keep saying you have no evidence, you don't really believe it. You think the Bible and the Patristic Fathers and Papias and Polycarp and Tacitus are so on are all evidence. It seems that if someone writes something supportive of your viewpoints you blindly accept it without subjecting it to critical analysis.
Well I can't have done any critical analysis because I don't agree with you. What critical analysis have you done. I read the over 600 pages of Richard Backhams's book "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses. Of course you simply dismiss him because he doesn't agree with. Here is a brief bio on the man.
quote:
Richard Bauckham was until 2007 Professor of New Testament Studies and Bishop Wardlaw Professor in the University of St Andrews, Scotland, and is now Professor Emeritus at St Andrews.
He was born in London in 1946, and educated at Downhills and Merryhills primary schools and Enfield Grammar School. He then studied at Cambridge, where he read history at Clare College (gaining a B.A. Honours degree, first class, and a Ph.D.), and was a Fellow of St John's College for three years.
After teaching theology for one year at the University of Leeds, he taught historical and contemporary theology for fifteen years at the University of Manchester, before moving to St Andrews in 1992.
He is a Fellow of the British Academy and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh. He is also a Visiting Professor at St Mellitus College, London. From 1996 to 2002 he was General Editor of the Society for New Testament Studies Monograph Series.
I have also read others on the subject. The objections that were raised were from roughly a couple of centuries ago in an effort to discredit the Gospels. It was called "form criticism". Here is a wiki article on it. Form Criticism
Here is one quote from that site.
quote:
Starting from the final decade of the 20th century, Bultmann's theories about the New Testament have been the subject of increasing criticism in the academic community: scholars such as Martin Hengel, James D. G. Dunn, Richard Bauckham and Brant J. Pitre have directly attacked form criticism as an erroneous theory, and have instead argued that the Gospels were written either by eyewitnesses or by authors who had reliable written and oral sources.. Though aspects of form criticism are still in the scholarly mainstream, many now admit that Bultmann's original positions have become untenable, to the point that, according to Werner H. Kelber, "Today it is no exaggeration to claim that a whole spectrum of main assumptions underlying Bultmann's Synoptic Tradition must be considered suspect."
The form critics completely disregarded the external evidence and relied on simply looking at the quality of the Greek and some other observations from the content. I went over all of the rationale and could not find anything that supported Rudolf Bultman's view that couldn't also be used to argue for the contrary position.
However, you know more about it than those who have spent their whole adult life studying it. I'd venture to say that I have done far more in the way of critical analysis than you have.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 9:03 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by Percy, posted 09-23-2022 12:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 567 of 815 (898149)
09-19-2022 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by nwr
09-16-2022 9:57 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
nwr writes:
That would be my attitude. However, some people just do not like e-books. My wife is such a person. She has her own kindle but almost never uses it. Maybe GDR is like that.
I'm like your wife. I have one but only use it as a last resort to get something.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by nwr, posted 09-16-2022 9:57 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 568 of 815 (898152)
09-19-2022 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 537 by Percy
09-16-2022 10:14 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
There are actually a variety of acceptable terminologies. You could call string theory a theory which is not yet accepted because a consensus has not formed around it. Or you could deem the term "string theory" a misnomer since it is actually just a hypothesis. Or you could say that string theory remains in the realm of the theoretical, which is another way of saying that there's insufficient evidence for a consensus to form.
Well then Christianity is theoretical as there is not sufficient consensus as there is insufficient evidence to allow a consensus to be formed. As some scientists believe string theory to be accurate many theologians believe that basic Christianity represents accurately the the nature of a deity.
Percy writes:
You keep seeking a wording favorable to your beliefs. The proper way to say this is that science studies the real world, while religion is about spiritual beliefs. There are not two different forms of knowledge. There's just knowledge. You can have knowledge of the physical properties of water, or knowledge of the story of Jesus as told by Mark. They're knowledge of different things, but they're not different forms of knowledge.
Sure I'm fine with that. They are looking for different answers. One is to discover material properties and how things work and the other is belief about why things are the way they are.
Percy writes:
Defining knowledge can be confusing. Do I know what a fire-breathing dragon is? Of course I do. Is there any such thing as a fire-breathing dragon? Of course there isn't. Then how can I know what a fire-breathing dragon is if they don't exist?
Sure, but if a very large percentage of the population believed that fire breathing dragons existed, then maybe it would be worth considering.
Percy writes:
How many times do I have to say this? I know, I get it, you're short of time and you're drawing many responses, but that doesn't make it okay that your forcing people to remake from scratch arguments they made earlier and that you ignored/didn't have time for.
Not every post requires a response. If you have followed what I've responded to I go through them in order. Some posts though are simply comments or simple "put downs" that don't call for an account. Or in a couple of cases there are those who claim I'm lying and so I'm not interested in maintaining a discussion with them.
Percy writes:
No, wrong again. One person failing to find non-natural processes is subjective. Two people failing is subjective. Even a thousand people failing is subjective. But 107 billion people have ever lived, and none have ever found evidence of non-natural processes. That's about as objective a finding as you can get.
Well, I'd suggest that there are numerous things that can be observed for which we can't absolutely say as to whether they are just nothing but absolute processes or not. As I said earlier we can roll a die that comes up 3. WE can absolutely know that it is a 3, (and personally I do believe that 3 is the reuslt of nothing but natural processes), but we can't claim absolutely that their wasn't divine interference.
Maybe science will ultimately discover a process that will tell us how abiogenesis occurred. However we won't know if there was outside interference or not. Same thing with consciousness.
Percy writes:

Your argument is that because natural processes exist that therefore non-natural processes must exist. Why does this make sense to you?
I have not said that non-natural processes must exist. I do maintain that the fact that natural processes exist, implies a designer.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 10:14 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Percy, posted 09-24-2022 9:36 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 569 of 815 (898153)
09-19-2022 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Percy
09-16-2022 5:50 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
That is energy, actual physical photons, and it will obey the commands of the universe.
GDR writes:
The commands of the universe. Doesn't a command require an intelligence?
Percy writes:
But given other things you've said, I expect that your position is that photons following the laws of the universe is evidence of non-natural photons, or at least of non-natural somethings. I don't think anyone here follows your logic and finds it opaque.

I think the reason no one can follow your logic is that you're using a circular argument while leaving out one crucial part that would close the circle: you assume the existence of God.
That wasn't my point. It was just that AZP claimed that it was following the laws of the universe which sounded to me a bit like making a deity of the "laws of the universe', now however after a little thought, I'd like to withdraw the comment.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 5:50 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 5:06 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 570 of 815 (898154)
09-19-2022 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Percy
09-16-2022 8:18 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Call it what you like, but we now have conscious sentient life, and in my personal opinion, it is more likely to have come from an intelligent source than a non-intelligent source.
Percy writes:
Yes, it's your personal opinion. That was my point. You're supposed to understand that personal opinions are meaningless. There are billions of people out there and all have various numbers of personal opinions not worth discussing.
Views worth discussing are backed by evidence and argument that can be weighed and assessed. You can't just say you have evidence - you have to actually have it.

Your lack of evidence means that your personal opinion that God exists is equal to someone else's personal opinion that the invisible spaghetti monster exists. The reason that belief that gods and spaghetti monsters exist does not come anywhere near in validity to the consensus that the Higgs Boson exists is because of evidence. This simple fact about the importance of evidence is not going to change. Without evidence you are unmoored.
You are expressing your personal opinion Your evidence is that you can observe or have evidence for natural processes. I don't argue against natural processes. However, it is simply your personal opinion, as I understand it, is that these natural processes are only the result of chance, and maybe you are right. However, scientifically we cannot say that the natural causes are not the result of pre-existing intelligence or even if there is inference in the processes from such an intelligence.
It is all personal opinion based on what we as individuals experience and observe.
Incidentally. this thread has hardly ever related to my point in starting this thread which was simply to make the point that it isn't the name of the deity or the religion that is important but the understanding of the nature of a deity and what it means to how we conduct our lives that matters, in response to the question of which god do you choose.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 8:18 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Percy, posted 09-24-2022 10:13 AM GDR has not replied

  
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