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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
nwr
Member
Posts: 6115
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 526 of 815 (897928)
09-16-2022 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 515 by GDR
09-15-2022 5:30 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
I recently answered a post by Stile where he talked about rolling a dice. This is not the point he was making, but if I roll a dice and it comes up 3, how would I know whether or not God interfered and caused it to come up as a 3.
I agree that there is no way to tell. But why do you think that matters? What difference does it make?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 5:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by Phat, posted 09-16-2022 5:53 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 527 of 815 (897929)
09-16-2022 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by nwr
09-16-2022 12:58 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Prov 16:33 writes:
NIV
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but it's every decision is from the LORD.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 528 of 815 (897930)
09-16-2022 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by GDR
09-15-2022 3:31 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Richard Bauckham's book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses details, after considerable research, how all the NT was written either by eye witnesses or by writers with a first person connected to the eye witnesses.
From the Wikipedia link that you provided:
Wikipedia on Richard Bauckham:
This is against the scholarly consensus that the four gospels were written later and not via interviews with direct eyewitnesses, but were rather the result of a longer chain of transmission of stories of Jesus filtered through early Christian communities over time.
So much for eyewitnesses.
In the war between of 66 -71ad Simon ben Giora led a messianic movement, with an army that had some success originally but he was taken to Rome and executed. He became simply a failed messiah.
History records a great deal about Simon bar Giora, but of Jesus, nothing.
In the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 ad, they actually maintained power for about 3 years and even went so far as to print coins dating year 1,2 and 3. Simon bar Kokhba was eventually executed along with Rabbi Akiva, and bar Koknaba was then simply considered another failed messiah.
History records a great deal about Simon bar Kokhba, but of Jesus, nothing.
Jesus whose followers were largely working class, without an army, and suffering a humiliating execution, and deserted by His followers suddenly started a movement which still exists today.
Paul, an itinerant preacher who founded churches in the Jewish diaspora, created the religion that eventually became Christianity. There is no way of knowing whether he based Jesus upon a real person, a composite of real persons, or made him up out of whole cloth, but that the gospels are works of fiction, just like the Bhagavad Gita, the Quran and the Book of Mormon, there can be no doubt.
Papias who lived from 60 to 130 AD insisted on writing only from eyewitness or from those with direct contact to the eye witnesses.
If you read Eusebius's quote of Papias he makes it seem like the early second century was just teeming with eyewitnesses of events from 70 years before. Does that seem likely or even possible to you? And apparently Papias's books about Jesus were so valued by the Christian community that they didn't survive the Middle Ages.
Polycarp born 69 AD wrote extensively and had contact with the disciples.
Yes, we know Polycarp had contact with the disciples because he said so. I guess that settles it. And what evidence does Polycarp provide about Jesus? Nothing in his one book that survives.
No books by Papias or Polycarp received consideration for inclusion in the canon at the Nicene conference.
There is no contemporary record of Jesus preaching to thousands and performing miracle after miracle before being crucified and resurrected and seen by hundreds because it didn't happen. But as Christian churches took hold interest naturally grew in the supposed founder of the religion, which Paul said was Jesus, and some began asking those few in their 90's whether they'd witnessed any of Jesus's activities. Likely many were willing to attest that yes, they'd witnessed him, just like today when so many claim to have seen the planes hit the towers or to have been at Woodstock (millions, when it was only about 500,000). Do you know what one of the biggest problems is in law enforcement? False or mistaken eyewitness testimony.
About 4.7% of people live to be 90 today, and it must have been much less in 2nd century Judea.
The writings that did survive until today are the testimonies of the early Christian churches of the Jewish diaspora which had never had any contact with Jesus and had no reliable source of information about him.
At least you're not claiming there's more evidence of Jesus than of Julius Caesar.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 3:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by Theodoric, posted 09-16-2022 11:03 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 555 by GDR, posted 09-17-2022 6:07 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 529 of 815 (897931)
09-16-2022 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by Phat
09-15-2022 3:51 PM


Re: History For Atheists
Phat writes:
We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see.
In this thread you can't "still" be discussing Kreeft because this is the first mention of him here. You're thinking of the Testing The Christian Apologists thread.
Kreeft seems to like the idea of absolute truth. That's a lot better than science can do, he must be a great man.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Phat, posted 09-15-2022 3:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17255
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 530 of 815 (897932)
09-16-2022 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by GDR
09-15-2022 4:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Well, if God exists then we might want to ask the question of why he bothered to bring us into existence. It seems reasonable and even logical that there would be a purpose to it, and if that is the case you would think we might be interested in that purpose, and what it should mean to our life.
Or we might reasonably conclude that there is no sensible purpose and that therefore the idea that a God brought us into existence is somewhat lacking.
quote:
I don't see it a case being strong enough at all, unless it's a pride thing. I'm concerned with truth, knowing that it is belief and faith.
If you were concerned with the truth you wouldn’t try to prop up your belief with obvious falsehoods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 4:45 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 531 of 815 (897933)
09-16-2022 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 515 by GDR
09-15-2022 5:30 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
X
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
I responded to this claim once already and you didn't respond. Now you're just repeating this claim yet again as if no one had ever responded to it. This is what you do, over and over. It's why people get frustrated at you and why you leave because you don't like the treatment that you yourself are instigating.
I am trying to use what time I have to work my way through all of these posts. Some things that are written I just accept and try and prioritize what to reply to.
What is wrong with you? Everyone understands having limited time and not being able to reply to everything. But you can't pretend the arguments you didn't respond to never happened, and that's what you're doing when you make an argument yet again as if there had never been any rebuttals.
How do you not see how dishonest this is? "Oh, I'm short of time, therefore any mistreatments of people I'm debating with are okay."
Stop making excuses for yourself and blaming your difficulties on others. You're bringing this on yourself. There's no timetable here, no schedule. Take your time and do right by people. It would be the Christian thing to do.
Percy writes:
The theoretical side of science does go beyond the empirical. For example, it was theorized that the Higgs Boson existed before empirical evidence for its existence was found. Once this evidence was produced it meant that the Higgs Boson was no longer theoretical but empirical.
So what, it could have also proven that it didn't exist. Up to then it was belief, although I agree there was evidence for it, but not conclusive.
No, up to then it was not belief. It was theoretical. And no one thinks the evidence conclusive in the sense of a timeless truth. It is tentative.
Percy writes:
That religion is subjective is why there are so many religions in the world. That science is empirical is why there's only one Boyle's Law, one Theory of Relativity, one germ theory of disease.
Religions are of a totally different nature than is science.
Yes, religion and science are different, as in the former has no evidence and the latter has plenty.
I do think that the order of science does suggest a designer but that of course is simply my belief, that I know you don't agree with.
It isn't a question of agreeing or disagreeing about a designer. What matters is that you have no evidence of a designer. What you've got is, "Oh, look at this flower, it's so beautiful, it must have been designed for our appreciation." This is countered by, "Oh, look at this parasite painfully destroying its host from the inside and finally exploding it before moving on to the next host." "Oh, look at this plague make someone sick in the morning and painfully kill them by evening." "Oh, look at this earthquake bring houses down on the innocent killing men, women and children." "Oh, look at this underwater Sumatran earthquake cause a tsunami killing over 200,000 people."
None of these things have anything apparent to do with a designer, but if they did the evidence against a designer, or at least for a malevolent designer, is much greater.
Did God influence...There is no evidence.
Yes, that's the key point, you have no evidence. Learn it, love it, live it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 5:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 1:44 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 532 of 815 (897934)
09-16-2022 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 516 by GDR
09-15-2022 5:46 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I don't have the credibility or the credentials that these guys have. I don't have their ability to express ideas. This has been their life's work. While they were at university and learning and teaching others I was raising kids and gaining the skills to make a living and then applying them.
You're not listening. Your writing skills relative to them are irrelevant. If you understood what they said then use your own words to say it and use links as a reference. And if you didn't understand what they said then don't say anything (i.e., don't be Phat).
I do believe that our lives in the present will have impact on the life to come.
This is trivially true. Can you say something that is an actual response to what I said about the material world having a real impact while the spiritual world can be completely ignored without consequence?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 5:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 2:02 PM Percy has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4130
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 533 of 815 (897935)
09-16-2022 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by GDR
09-15-2022 4:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Well, if God exists then we might want to ask the question of why he bothered to bring us into existence.
An excellent starting point.
Let's grant that God exists.
Why not consider that we aren't a part of God's plan at all?
Maybe God doesn't even know we're here? Perhaps we're so insignificant, and such a tiny by-product that we seem no more than a speck of dust landing in the corner of an attic no one ever enters?
After all, everything we actually know of the universe implies it's been created to make stars. Not people.
Other than humanity's desire to have questions answered... can you name a single thing that we know about reality (as well as we can know anything... with evidence...) that reasonably indicates that God "bothered" to bring us into existence?
It seems reasonable and even logical that there would be a purpose to it...
"IF" God actually did bother to bring us into existence, purposefully, then yes. This is certainly an interesting question. At least on a curiosity level if nothing else.
But going from "God exists" to "God intended to create humans with a purpose" seems a really big jump - given what we've been able to learn about the universe.
I don't see it a case being strong enough at all, unless it's a pride thing. I'm concerned with truth, knowing that it is belief and faith.
Are you sure you're "concerned with truth?"
You seem more concerned with protecting your beliefs and letting yourself feel like your beliefs are true rather than searching for truth itself.
Wouldn't being concerned with truth include:
-looking at the universe the way it is
-understanding how vast the universe is and how small/insignificant humans are within it
-understanding how no part of the universe shows us any intervention from any "God" in any way
-if a God exists and kicked off the universe, and it ended up this way... was His aim off and He "got lucky" that a tiny, immeasurably small portion of His universe was able to support humans as He desired?
-or is it more likely that if a God exists and kicked off this universe... that His aim was spot-on and lots and lots and lots of stars exist - creating beauty for Him beyond anything a human is capable of... and humanity is just something that needs to be endured within a tiny, immeasurably small portion of the canvas God painted?
One of those is closer to being "concerned with truth" (as it is understood as best we can today, anyway.)
The other is closer to being "concerned with protecting personal beliefs/feelings" (regardless of our best attempts to ascertain the truth of this universe.)
The point is... if you actually are concerned with truth... why not be honest about saying "Yeah, well, it certainly appears that God isn't involved in this world... and all evidence seems to point that way... I just hope it's wrong because I would personally prefer a universe where I'm a direct, intended product of a creator God."
Seems to me that such a statement would display an overwhelming sense of "being concerned with truth" as well as "having massive amounts of faith."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 4:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 563 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 2:54 PM Stile has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 534 of 815 (897936)
09-16-2022 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 517 by GDR
09-15-2022 6:00 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
I see Taq has responded, but I haven't read it yet. My response is to quote John McEnroe: "You cannot be serious." Like Jesus, Joseph Smith is believed by his followers to be a great prophet and worker of miracles, but unlike Jesus there is unimpeachable evidence that he was a real person who actually existed.
What is the unimpeachable evidence. You have people writing about him. But they did they make it up. You are entirely dependent on what others have, written. You never met him. It is just far more recent and after the printing press was invented. What is the scientific evidence that he existed, assuming there is no grave site?
Can we keep this discussion out of the realm of the absurd? Things that happen leave evidence behind, and Joseph Smith left a lot of evidence behind as well as a huge amount of contemporaneous accounts of his activities. And yes, there's a grave site with a long complicated story behind it that you can look up if you're interested:
We all come to our own conclusions. I have my Christian beliefs which is not necessarily the same as other Christians, most here have their atheistic beliefs and you have a vaguely defined spiritual belief that is so weakly defined that there is nothing to really argue against or defend.
Well, yes, this is absolutely true. Having no evidence I can reach no conclusions. I have nothing to argue for or defend, just a vague feeling that existence happened for a reason.
But you, by your own admission, also have no evidence yet have reached plenty of conclusions. How can that be? The answer is that though you keep saying you have no evidence, you don't really believe it. You think the Bible and the Patristic Fathers and Papias and Polycarp and Tacitus are so on are all evidence. It seems that if someone writes something supportive of your viewpoints you blindly accept it without subjecting it to critical analysis.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 6:00 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 566 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 3:48 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 535 of 815 (897937)
09-16-2022 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 518 by GDR
09-15-2022 6:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Thanks. When I first read your post I agreed that it sounded interesting. I went straight to Amazon and ordered it and it si supposed to arrive Sep. 28. They didn't have it available in Canada so they have to get it up from the states first.
Couldn't you just buy the Kindle version and be reading it now?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6115
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 536 of 815 (897938)
09-16-2022 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 535 by Percy
09-16-2022 9:29 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Couldn't you just buy the Kindle version and be reading it now?
That would be my attitude. However, some people just do not like e-books. My wife is such a person. She has her own kindle but almost never uses it. Maybe GDR is like that.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 9:29 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 3:55 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 537 of 815 (897939)
09-16-2022 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by GDR
09-15-2022 6:18 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Yes the scientific findings as you describe them are not subjective conclusions. However, belief or rejection of string theory is a subjective conclusion as the scientific evidence is not conclusive.
There are actually a variety of acceptable terminologies. You could call string theory a theory which is not yet accepted because a consensus has not formed around it. Or you could deem the term "string theory" a misnomer since it is actually just a hypothesis. Or you could say that string theory remains in the realm of the theoretical, which is another way of saying that there's insufficient evidence for a consensus to form.
But again (and again and again), scientific evidence is not conclusive in the sense of timeless truths. When one is trying to be precise from a scientific philosophy standpoint, one would say that the theories constructed around scientific evidence are tentative.
Science and religion are two different forms of knowledge all together. Science answers hard facts.
You keep seeking a wording favorable to your beliefs. The proper way to say this is that science studies the real world, while religion is about spiritual beliefs. There are not two different forms of knowledge. There's just knowledge. You can have knowledge of the physical properties of water, or knowledge of the story of Jesus as told by Mark. They're knowledge of different things, but they're not different forms of knowledge.
Also, since knowledge often bears upon evidence it's worth repeating that science and religion do not both have evidence. Science has evidence, religion does not.
Defining knowledge can be confusing. Do I know what a fire-breathing dragon is? Of course I do. Is there any such thing as a fire-breathing dragon? Of course there isn't. Then how can I know what a fire-breathing dragon is if they don't exist?
Knowledge is most often defined as facts, information, skills, truths or principles. Knowledge of fire-breathing dragons falls under the information category and should more accurately be referred to as knowledge of the fire-breathing dragons of myth, since there are no fire-breathing dragons of reality.
However, science still has to come up with answers, using what science is known to form a subjective opinion.
How many times do I have to say this? I know, I get it, you're short of time and you're drawing many responses, but that doesn't make it okay that your forcing people to remake from scratch arguments they made earlier and that you ignored/didn't have time for.
The process of experimentation, evidence gathering, peer review, publication, replication and consensus is not "subjective opinion." It's as far from "subjective opinion" as humans can get.
And science does not "have to come up with answers" in the way that I think you mean it. What is dark matter? What is dark energy? Can relativity and quantum theory be unified? What is beyond the standard model? Scientists are working hard to develop answers to these questions, and that's all they can do. The answers will come when they come, if ever.
Science has unearthed numerous natural processes. However as that is all that science has discovered, it is a subjective conclusion that there is nothing more.
No, wrong again. One person failing to find non-natural processes is subjective. Two people failing is subjective. Even a thousand people failing is subjective. But 107 billion people have ever lived, and none have ever found evidence of non-natural processes. That's about as objective a finding as you can get.
That's fine, but it is my subjective conclusion that there is more about our existence than natural processes, and one of the things that causes me to believe that is simply that natural processes exist, and we can learn about them.
Your argument is that because natural processes exist that therefore non-natural processes must exist. Why does this make sense to you? Does it also make sense to you that because natural stars exist that non-natural stars must also exist?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by GDR, posted 09-15-2022 6:18 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 568 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 4:30 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 538 of 815 (897940)
09-16-2022 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 528 by Percy
09-16-2022 7:28 AM


GDR will just move on
He will not respond substantively to this. He may blow some smoke but nothing substantive. Then in 6 months or so he will bring it up again, totally ignoring previous responses. He is a lot like Phat. The only difference is that GDR has presented himself as reasonable. We know Phat better and have seen the decline of his ability to have a rational argument. It seems we gave GDR too much benefit of the doubt. Then maybe we gave him the rope to hang himself.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Percy, posted 09-16-2022 7:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 539 of 815 (897941)
09-16-2022 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by Phat
09-15-2022 3:51 PM


Re: History For Atheists
Phat writes:
We are still discussing Peter Kreeft. He has not lied anywhere that I can see.
All we've seen of him is a few lines that you quoted.
Phat writes:
Dr.Kreeft, now 85, is well loved and well respected by many people.
Irrelevant. So is Trump.
Phat writes:
You are so far the only guy I know who refers to him as "some goober".
I call him "some goober" because his ideas are no more important than some guy who pumps gas in Mayberry.
If you want to discuss Peter Kreeft, get to it. I answered what you quoted from him. Respond to my answers.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Phat, posted 09-15-2022 3:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 540 of 815 (897942)
09-16-2022 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 527 by Phat
09-16-2022 5:53 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes:
Prov 16:33 writes:

NIV

33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but it's every decision is from the LORD.
That sounds like predestination.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Phat, posted 09-16-2022 5:53 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 541 by Theodoric, posted 09-16-2022 12:28 PM ringo has replied

  
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