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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 571 of 815 (898155)
09-19-2022 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by GDR
09-19-2022 4:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
It was just that AZP claimed that it was following the laws of the universe which sounded to me a bit like making a deity of the "laws of the universe', now however after a little thought, I'd like to withdraw the comment.
NO, no, no, it was a humorous quip and taken, at least by me, as so. I even tried to tease you with that knowledge.
Your withdrawal is not necessary, not accepted. Everyone else is being too stuffy. You were fine ... and appreciated.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 4:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by GDR, posted 09-21-2022 8:43 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 785
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 572 of 815 (898159)
09-19-2022 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by GDR
09-19-2022 2:54 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
All can I really say that if God bothered to bring us into existence, (even if all that He did was to introduce consciousness into the world), then it makes sense that He wouldn't do it without some purpose in mind.
Does this apply to all living things on Earth equally? Bacteria, bugs, snakes, etc ... ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 2:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by GDR, posted 09-21-2022 8:52 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 573 of 815 (898160)
09-19-2022 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by PaulK
09-17-2022 2:34 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Paulk writes:
Because you don’t care about the truth, only about propping up your personal belief,
I care very much about the truth, and like you and everyone else here we keep propping up our own beliefs.
PaulK writes:
Obviously this sort of thinking leads to an infinite regress. And it seems obvious to me that evolution is a more likely cause of intelligence than anything you might propose for your assumed “cosmic intelligence” - and that can be backed by at least some evidence.
Evolution, without an external intelligence itself leads to an infinite regress of processes.
Also we are fundamentally unable to perceive of a world, (although as far as I understand it we can get a picture of more than one dimension of time mathematically), with more than our one time dimension and therefore cannot picture an eternal consciousness. It is faith. With we can move around infinitely with 3 spatial dimensions, so maybe we could do the same with 3 dimensions of time. I'm not in anyway suggesting that represents reality, except that it is one way of getting a picture of an eternal existence.
You can observe and learn a lot about how evolution happened. What is the evidence though, that there can't be an external intelligence behind the natural processes? On that question

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2022 2:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by dwise1, posted 09-20-2022 3:41 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 578 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2022 4:25 AM GDR has replied
 Message 636 by Percy, posted 09-24-2022 10:30 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 574 of 815 (898162)
09-19-2022 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Tangle
09-17-2022 3:02 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
It's not without problems of course, the main one being that Jesus never said any of it.
Maybe, or maybe Matthew was the the tax collector, (which I contend to be the case) and wrote it after hearing it, whether or not it was all one complete sermon or from more than one sermon. Who knows, possibly even Jesus had written it out, before or after, giving the talk or talks and Matthew used those. We don't know. The wiki article is someone's' opinion as is my view.
Incidentally, I hold the minority view that Matthew was the first Gospel written and written early on. There is a very good book written by David Alan Black that presents a solid case for Matthean priority. Why Four Gospels. I don't agree with Black's more literalist views but I do find his case for Matthean priority compelling.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2022 3:02 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2022 3:07 AM GDR has replied
 Message 579 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2022 7:36 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 575 of 815 (898174)
09-20-2022 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by AZPaul3
09-18-2022 11:05 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
You can’t disagree. Percy did not voice an opinion. He stated a known fact.
Nonsense. It is not a known fact. Richard Bauckham as I have pointed out in other posts goes through in his 600 plus page book, (which I have read) "Jesus and the eyewitnesses" and claims otherwise.
Here is a brief summary on the Gospel accounts.
Jesus and the Eyewitnesses
AZPaul3 writes:
If you dispute the fact then you must show the fact wrong. You cannot just assert that it is wrong or just disagree with what it shows.

Percy’s post is fact. "The writings that did survive until today are the testimonies of the early Christian churches of the Jewish diaspora which had never had any contact with Jesus and had no reliable source of information about him."

You have to deal with facts. You cannot just disagree and ignore them.
It is opinion and not an established fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by AZPaul3, posted 09-18-2022 11:05 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by Percy, posted 09-24-2022 10:43 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8676
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 576 of 815 (898175)
09-20-2022 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 574 by GDR
09-19-2022 8:49 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Maybe, or maybe Matthew was the the tax collector, (which I contend to be the case) and wrote it after hearing it, whether or not it was all one complete sermon or from more than one sermon. Who knows, possibly even Jesus had written it out, before or after, giving the talk or talks and Matthew used those. We don't know. The wiki article is someone's' opinion as is my view
You're continuing with this wrong-headed equivalence. You're just fooling yourself by picking out extreme views that you want to believe and claiming that they're as good as other ideas that have evidence and concensus. All views and opinion are not equal.
quote:
Most scholars believe the [Matthew] gospel was composed between AD 80 and 90, with a range of possibility between AD 70 to 110; a pre-70 date remains a minority view.[11][12] The work does not identify its author, and the early tradition attributing it to the apostle Matthew is rejected by modern scholars.[13][14] He was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time.[15] Writing in a polished Semitic "synagogue Greek", he drew on the Gospel of Mark as a source, plus the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source (material shared with Luke but not with Mark) and material unique to his own community, called the M source or "Special Matthew".[16][17]
Gospel of Matthew - Wikipedia

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 8:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by GDR, posted 09-21-2022 9:05 PM Tangle has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5287
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 577 of 815 (898176)
09-20-2022 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by GDR
09-19-2022 8:30 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Evolution, without an external intelligence itself leads to an infinite regress of processes.
Huh? Why would that be necessary?
Evolution, even without any external intelligence, would still lead to an optimally functional result. That is what evolution does. That is what life itself does, quite naturally.
While evolution does not conflict with Divine Creation (your "external intelligence"), it also does not require such a thingee. That your "external intelligence" is superfluous (like God or Zeus personally directing those bolts of lightning to their targets) does not negate the possibility of their existence, but it also shows that their existence is not necessary. Therefore, using such arguments to "prove" their necessity is completely and utterly useless. Do please try to find some other better arguments for your case.
Just in case that went right over your head, I'm not arguing against your case, but rather pointing out that you need to present a much better case. Or at least a much more honest one.
Also we are fundamentally unable to perceive of a world, (although as far as I understand it we can get a picture of more than one dimension of time mathematically), with more than our one time dimension and therefore cannot picture an eternal consciousness. It is faith. With we can move around infinitely with 3 spatial dimensions, so maybe we could do the same with 3 dimensions of time. I'm not in anyway suggesting that represents reality, except that it is one way of getting a picture of an eternal existence.
Jessica H. Christ! (taking parthenogenesis into account, which produces genetic clones of the mother, hence making any product of Virgin Birth female (though for some species, eg reptiles, the embryo can switch gender during incubation, but not so for mammals) -- as per my hypothesis (should be interesting reading for believers since it explains the displays they've see in church), the "H" is actually the Greek letter eta (Η or η) that appears in that ubiquitous religious artform, christograms)
There's that standard quote-mining of Darwin expressing how difficult it is to imagine how the eye could have evolved, but creationists make sure to leave out the following two pages of exposition in order to accomplish their deception. Darwin's use of "imagine" is the ability to visualize something in our minds, a form of reasoning that I have used all my life to reason through how mechanical systems and physics problems work. Darwin's response was to point out that while our ability to visualize all those stages may be lacking, we can still use reason to work through it. Which is what Darwin then did in his writing, working through that problem based in a plethora of examples of intermediate forms of the eye that exist in nature and are still fully functional.
You should read Flatland some time. Interesting intellectual exercise proposing how our own 3-D universe might appear to 2-D persons incapable to perceiving that third dimension. And yet we have physics that describe up to eleven (11) dimensions. Nobody can visualize more than three dimensions (some may be able to handle four dimensions, but no more than that!). So how do we handle all those extra dimensions? Through reason, namely mathematics.
BTW, do you like the appearance of three dimensions on a two-dimensional screen? What is happening there is that a three-dimensional world is being compactified as it is projected onto a two-dimensional plane. As a retired software engineer, I never did work in graphics, but I did read up a bit on that field, so I can appreciate what they do in my own limited way. As we work our way up into higher dimensions, the only way we can even begin to visualize them is to compactify them into lower dimensions, but then we lose so much information in that process. For example, we have the tesseract (not just some stinkin' Infinity Stone), a hypercube which is the projection of a four-dimentional object into our limited 3-D perceptive abilities.
James Burke was a science journalist for the BBC who also enjoyed some popularity on PBS. For your consideration, here is his "Masters of Illusion" TV episode (1991) in which he explores the Renaissance art of projecting three dimensions onto two:
We have ways of dealing with things that we cannot personally visualize. Ways which take everything into strict account (I'm thinking of the mathematics here). No need to yet again just wave our hands about.
You can observe and learn a lot about how evolution happened. What is the evidence though, that there can't be an external intelligence behind the natural processes? On that question
No evidence that there can't be, but also no evidence that there must be.
What did CAPT Montgomery Scott say? That the fancier you make the plumbing, the easier it is to clog it up.
In other words, ye canna disprove it, but ye also canna prove it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 8:30 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17255
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 578 of 815 (898178)
09-20-2022 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by GDR
09-19-2022 8:30 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
I care very much about the truth, and like you and everyone else here we keep propping up our own beliefs.
In reality you don’t.
quote:
Evolution, without an external intelligence itself leads to an infinite regress of processes.
And there is a fine example of you preferring a falsehood to prop up your beliefs. Thanks for proving my point.
quote:
Also we are fundamentally unable to perceive of a world, (although as far as I understand it we can get a picture of more than one dimension of time mathematically), with more than our one time dimension and therefore cannot picture an eternal consciousness. It is faith. With we can move around infinitely with 3 spatial dimensions, so maybe we could do the same with 3 dimensions of time. I'm not in anyway suggesting that represents reality, except that it is one way of getting a picture of an eternal existence.
And this is just irrelevant obfuscation, another example.
quote:
You can observe and learn a lot about how evolution happened. What is the evidence though, that there can't be an external intelligence behind the natural processes?
And another example. The only evidence you can have is the lack of evidence for such a thing. You can’t get at the truth by just making things up and demanding that they be disproved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 8:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by GDR, posted 09-21-2022 9:26 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17255
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 579 of 815 (898179)
09-20-2022 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 574 by GDR
09-19-2022 8:49 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Incidentally, I hold the minority view that Matthew was the first Gospel written and written early on. There is a very good book written by David Alan Black that presents a solid case for Matthean priority. Why Four Gospels. I don't agree with Black's more literalist views but I do find his case for Matthean priority compelling.
Is that where you got the idea that the use of the third person was evidence of authorship? Did Black actually say that? I’d appreciate a quote if he did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by GDR, posted 09-19-2022 8:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by GDR, posted 09-22-2022 12:17 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 580 of 815 (898265)
09-21-2022 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by Percy
09-18-2022 5:28 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
No, the consensus isn't changing. It can only change if new evidence of eyewitnesses comes to light. Without that you've just got endless discussion of different viewpoints, which has been the situation for centuries.
Actually there are a variety of reasons. Firstly the Christian scholars up until recently were heavily influenced by the form critics who completely discounted the early church fathers. Now Christian studies are taking those works seriously.
The Dead Sea Scrolls have been very helpful in providing context and a better understanding of the language including the idioms.
Things like the excavation of Pompeii is providing a much clearer picture of the Roman world of the 1st century.
Scholarship is moving away from regarding the Bible as directly authored by God.
The internet is making the data universally available and also allows scholars access to the work of others and allows them to communicate much more easily.
Percy writes:
So miracles and resurrections aren't noteworthy in 30 AD, but by 100 AD they are? You're actually describing the exact process of mythology where the details grow over time. Your own critical thinking should come into play and recognize that Papias's and Polycarp's claims of interviewing eyewitnessesn more than 70 years after the events is unlikely in the extreme. Why doesn't it?
Papias was likely earlier than that but we can't be sure one way or the other. You however are completely disregarding all that was written about Jesus in the NT. Also the vast majority of Jesus' ministry was in Galilee and as a result didn't have the same following in Judea. Only a small minority of the population experienced the resurrected Jesus. For most Jesus would simply be a failed messiah. By the Gospel accounts that is also the way Jesus' followers believed until they encountered the resurrected Jesus. After all, He hadn't even raised an army let alone won any battles.
Percy writes:
Are you sure we disagree? I'm sure we both believe the gospels were produced by the early Christian churches that Paul founded in the Jewish diaspora. And that they couldn't have had any contact with Jesus since Paul didn't start founding churches until after Jesus's death. And that their only source of information was secondhand.
No, I don't agree.
I realize that currently my belief runs contrary to the teaching of the majority oc seminaries. However I contend, that based on both internal evidence that the Gospels were authored by eye witnesses or those with contact with eyewitnesses.
After reading a considerable amount on the subject, here is a summary of that belief.
Matthew- written Matthew the tax collector within 10 years of the resurrection. Quite possibly written in Aramaic and the later translated into Greek, likely by himself.
Luke/Acts - written by Luke who was a disciple of Paul who travelled with him and was with Paul in Jerusalem where he spent time with the disciples., and wrote in the late fifties or possibly early sixties.
Mark - written by a disciple of Peter who travelled with Peter and using Matthew wrote what he did using Peter's lectures that were likely given in Rome.
John - was written probably in the late 80's by a disciple of Jesus, but not one of the twelve.
Percy writes:
Why is it so important to you that your faith have evidence? If it had evidence would it still be faith?
There is zero scientific evidence so I am left with the ancient texts and what I have observed from my life and from the world around me. Actually the science that I have read by people like Brian Greene etc, have helped convince me that I am on the right track.
However I can't know that what I believe is fact so it boils down to faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Percy, posted 09-18-2022 5:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by Theodoric, posted 09-21-2022 10:35 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 641 by Percy, posted 09-24-2022 11:09 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 581 of 815 (898284)
09-21-2022 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 565 by AZPaul3
09-19-2022 3:16 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
This is way way old PopSci misunderstanding. Change your sources. See Sean Carroll. Consciousness has nothing to do with measurement.
Actually I have read Sean Carrol although not recently but I still have the book.
A measurement can only take place as a result of a conscious thought and action.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 3:16 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 1:45 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 582 of 815 (898285)
09-21-2022 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by AZPaul3
09-19-2022 5:06 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes:
NO, no, no, it was a humorous quip and taken, at least by me, as so. I even tried to tease you with that knowledge.

Your withdrawal is not necessary, not accepted. Everyone else is being too stuffy. You were fine ... and appreciated.
Thanks. I thought it was and I replied in kind, but I guess our humour is too subtle for some of us.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 5:06 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 583 of 815 (898286)
09-21-2022 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by kjsimons
09-19-2022 7:57 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
All can I really say that if God bothered to bring us into existence, (even if all that He did was to introduce consciousness into the world), then it makes sense that He wouldn't do it without some purpose in mind.
kjsimons writes:
Does this apply to all living things on Earth equally? Bacteria, bugs, snakes, etc ... ?
Kinda above my pay grade. I believe in the re-creation of all thins as Paul writes about in Ephesians. However, I think the point is largely about conscious life. It is obvious that animals have consciousness, however, I have no idea of how far you can go with that. Do plants have a form of consciousness? Beats me.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by kjsimons, posted 09-19-2022 7:57 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 584 of 815 (898287)
09-21-2022 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by Tangle
09-20-2022 3:07 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
You're continuing with this wrong-headed equivalence. You're just fooling yourself by picking out extreme views that you want to believe and claiming that they're as good as other ideas that have evidence and concensus. All views and opinion are not equal.
You keep saying that but I'm not claiming equivalence. I'm simply saying that they are different. You use science as evidence and I simply believe that science is agnostic as far as there being a cosmic intelligence is concerned, but you don't agree. I have no scientific evidence for my theistic views, and they are primarily based on observation and experience.
Tangle writes:
Most scholars believe the [Matthew] gospel was composed between AD 80 and 90, with a range of possibility between AD 70 to 110; a pre-70 date remains a minority view.[11][12] The work does not identify its author, and the early tradition attributing it to the apostle Matthew is rejected by modern scholars.[13][14] He was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time.[15] Writing in a polished Semitic "synagogue Greek", he drew on the Gospel of Mark as a source, plus the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source (material shared with Luke but not with Mark) and material unique to his own community, called the M source or "Special Matthew".[16][17]
I agree that I hold the minority view. Actually, from an Occam's Razor POV, Matthean priority is simpler as it negates inventing "Q", for which there is zero evidence. In effect, Matthew then takes the place of Q.
I also suggest that the minority view is growing.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2022 3:07 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by PaulK, posted 09-22-2022 2:32 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 585 of 815 (898288)
09-21-2022 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by PaulK
09-20-2022 4:25 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Evolution, without an external intelligence itself leads to an infinite regress of processes.
PaulK writes:
And there is a fine example of you preferring a falsehood to prop up your beliefs. Thanks for proving my point.
OK. What is the process that kicked off all of the processes necessary for all the different branches of the evolutionary processes? What was the process that produced a process for consciousness, sentience etc? What was the process that created the first cell and what was the process that caused a single cell to multiply? What was the process that caused compounds to form and so on and so on. I guess using the term infinite is too strong, however you can go right back to the BB and then into a vast unknown.
It seems simpler to me to have a cosmic intelligence who always existed outside of our world with it's one dimension of time being responsible.
GDR writes:
You can observe and learn a lot about how evolution happened. What is the evidence though, that there can't be an external intelligence behind the natural processes?
PaulK writes:
And another example. The only evidence you can have is the lack of evidence for such a thing. You can’t get at the truth by just making things up and demanding that they be disproved.
This is another example of you avoiding the question. We both know that this is about belief. Neither view can be proven scientifically or in any other manner.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2022 4:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by PaulK, posted 09-22-2022 2:17 AM GDR has not replied

  
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